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Subj: Re: My bad, took a wrong turn at Albuquerque...
Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 at 11:18:55 pm EDT (Viewed 130 times)
Reply Subj: My bad, took a wrong turn at Albuquerque...
Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 at 02:19:48 pm EDT (Viewed 144 times)
The episode was fine and I will return to it again and again as a spectacle - it's the series as a whole that's been cheapened! But there's no point debating this. You were in agreement with me before, now you're not. It's Arya.
Quote:Would I have preferred the Night King to survive and terrorize King's Landing. Absolutely. Does it ruin the episode for me that he didn't. Nope. Going in, I figured the NK had AT BEST a 50% chance of surviving the episode so his fate wasn’t unexpected.
Arya rules! Anyway, I did agree with you before and still do, but my agreeing with you is not mutually exclusive with the alternative not ruining the episode for me.
Unless you're not talking about the Beric thing, nope. We saw that wights would die if "their" Walker died, which is reasonable, but anything else is just something he thought to be true without having tried it, akin to placing their hopes on dragonfire to down the NK.
Quote:That they would be affected was established last season.
Nevertheless, Beric said that if they take down the NK, they take down all of them. If may have been informed speculation, but it set the viewer up to believe that was the case.
Quote:There are clear differences between the Walkers and the rest of the undead, zvelf, both in the way they act independent of the NK (they share his purpose, he leads them, but they are not mindless drones merely existing through his power and will), but especially in their origin, which is through transformation of a living creature, not reanimation of a dead body. It's more or less the replication of the NK's origin, so if he can outlive his creators, why wouldn't they?
I agree with you that would have been more interesting, but that's not the way the story went.
Quote:And don't gimme no "wrong/more clarification" excuses! Again, there's room to be wrong once (Stannis), but two (Jon), three times (Daenerys)? Heck, with that retcon of the "eyes", Melisandre and the Lord of Light become a gag duo! R'hllor gave her a glimpse of the truth early on (Arya), but kept feeding her stronger leads to false candidates, even going as far as resurrecting one to have a hearty laugh at her expense, that it ?
You called it! R'hllor has a strong sense humor!
Daenery's arc is, in a sense, the most affected of all! Since the very day she was given dragons, people reasonably expected that she'd eventually end up being the primary defender of the realm against dem ice zombos. We knew about no dragonglasses and Varyliar steelses then, nope. And it doesn't matter what the character herself thought, nor is it what you say - she initially thought she was getting a Dothraki army for her brother's sake, yet we saw how that kept changing over the years.
Quote:Huh? There’s a lot more to Jon than dealing with the NK – like overcoming his apparently being a bastard to ascend to Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and his true parentage being revealed making him the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Stannis was always a red herring. Melisandre was pivotal in this past episode, not meaningless. Bran’s arc turned out to be more about the Night King and the White Walkers and less so about Bran himself and so his arc was not meaningless. He also gave Arya the dagger that finished the job. Daenerys’ arc is the most unaffected of all except that she lost her Dothraki forces. As she noted to Sansa, Jon waylaid her, but her ultimate purpose always lay elsewhere.
Daenerys' trajectory is no different in this respect than Arya's. Dany leveled up as a military leader. Arya leveled up as an assassin. Arya's skill set just proved more pivotal for finishing off the NK. Dany's armies preserved her long enough to do the deed.
Quote:As for Jon, we been watching the same show? I know you're on record here that the Wall things were the most boring aspects of the show for you
I don't recall saying that. I quite liked the Jon-Ygritte storyline, the truest romance the show's ever had. If I have a least favorite storyline, it's Ramsay's endless torturing of Theon. Second least would be those boring religious Sparrows.
Quote:As such, how was Melisandre pivotal in last episode? You mean how she scared the Hound off so he could be poised to rescue Arya? Maybe if she hadn't blundered her one purpose of finding and leading her prophesied champion, the Wall would still be up and "guarding the realms of men", and she wouldn't have to rely on a follower of another god to save the day...
Melisandre's blundering before doesn't mean she can't do something right in the end, and she sets Arya on her path.
Who goes after whom is not the narrative. The narrative is humans fighting amongst themselves for petty reasons while a grand threat is coming for them all. They either put their differences aside and try to survive together or they all die.
Quote:To an extent but from a drama standpoint, Cersei, a well developed human character, was always going to trump the Night King in importance. As anticlimactic as taking out the NK first might feel, it’s less anticlimactic than taking out Cersei first.
Yes, that was the set up, but one antagonist had to be beaten first no matter what happened.
Quote:"But that's why it's good, because it defies stereotypes", no? Well, no! This is just makes the narrative a joke, with an abomination of a moral! If the threat could so casually be dealt with, then it was never dire! It's not all the schemers who were wrong, it's everyone with a decent cell in their body! Cersei was not a moron, she was right! Out of all the possible scenarios that would have doomed her, the only one that served her ends happened! What a brainiac!
Yeah, I didn't like that.
Quote:But it's not that I'm not aware of Martin's affinity for the ending of LOTR (Saruman in Shire), and his characters could not possibly stay reconciled, so resuming a lesser conflict amongst the survivors afterwards was to be expected. But Cersei could still have sent whatever Crown forces remained up north, while keeping the GC secret and in reserve close by, to either try and save the game if all looked lost or put down the survivors. Same ending, through a reasonable route. But there's just no need for a narrative anymore - they just do the first thing they can think of to end where they want, in-world sense be damned!
Quote:This is the one I know will resonate the least with you, but I still think of Ned as the hero of the story. While he may have died, I saw his principles and values carry on through Robb first, then Jon. Ned is derided as a fool by a lot, but if Jon were to be pivotal in ending the threat, it would have been his character's catharsis.
Jon was pivotal. More than anyone else, he put together the coalition that allowed the NK to be defeated. He didn't have to strike the final blow to still take a lot of credit.
Quote:Bran, Sansa, Arya... they are no longer Ned's children, if they ever were. Arya, in particular, followed a path of vengeance that transformed her into a sociopath that would shock Ned to his very core! Theon ended up with more of Ned's values than Arya...
You're right that your argument makes no sense. The whole point of Ned's death is that being super noble is not enough and is sometimes detrimental.
Er... what? The Dothraki are not a separate faction that volunteered to be there - Daenerys commands, they obey. If the could "refuse this, refuse that", they never would have crossed the sea to begin with.
Quote:I think it’s impossible that the production did not consider this and went with the idea that the Dothraki would simply refuse using weapons that aren’t their own. Basically, Dany brought the Dothraki into the worst possible type of fight for them where due to the magical nature of their foes, lots of flexibility is required and the Dothraki only fight one way.
They obey Dany in general. They wouldn't obey her for long if her commands went against their very nature.
Quote:I said that they were preventable "as presented", not that no one should have died. They basically engineered moronic situations to kill the people they had decided. Daenerys lands her dragon right when they've gained air superiority and just stands there, waiting for the dragon to panic?
Dany's not a hardened warrior who's been in many battles. She was worried about Jon and that rattled her.
Quote:Sam, who's not a fighter, takes a place in the front ranks?
At Sam's request.
Quote:Theon, who would have probably stood his ground, is manipulated into charging?
And let the NK get that close to Bran?
If you mention the above things as good, you're hopeless...
Quote:Well, the series has been good at upending expectations like this. Jaime and Ned never finished their duel properly because of interference. Jaime never got into another true swordfight when he was 100% in the series before losing his hand. Renly never got to engage his forces because a shadow killed him. Jon vs. the NK is one more cliché upended. We’ll see if they make an exception for Cleganebowl.
I'm hopeless! All these scenarios made the story more interesting and not run of the mill.
Or maybe he could have warged into Jon and had him fight the NK to give Arya her opening - everyone wins !
Quote:Yeah, they messed up here. Bran needed to be doing something useful aside from documenting the action with ravens. My own preference is him enlisting Nymeria and her wolf pack. If they attacked the WW and gave Arya her opening, that would have been even more dramatic.
That would have made no sense at all. Jon would fight better than Bran-Jon.
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