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Post By
Drax the Legend

Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,163
In Reply To
zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,628
Subj: My bad, took a wrong turn at Albuquerque...
Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 at 02:19:48 pm EDT (Viewed 50 times)
Reply Subj: Re: You had to go there
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 at 03:26:53 pm EDT (Viewed 54 times)



    Quote:
    Would I have preferred the Night King to survive and terrorize King's Landing. Absolutely. Does it ruin the episode for me that he didn't. Nope. Going in, I figured the NK had AT BEST a 50% chance of surviving the episode so his fate wasn’t unexpected.


The episode was fine and I will return to it again and again as a spectacle - it's the series as a whole that's been cheapened! But there's no point debating this. You were in agreement with me before, now you're not. It's Arya.


    Quote:
    Fans who get too caught up in what they want the story to be instead of what it is are doomed to lose their souls! GoT fan theories have run amuck and now people measure the show against their sometimes outlandish ideas instead of letting the story just be the story.


Who's talking about theories? You're confusing me for Fair-Gun Ray. I just defended and tried to explain a lot of the show's decisions last season, even against you, believing they served the greater narrative, which was to finally have everyone realize the common danger. Alas, what was actually happening was priming the ground for a swift wrap-up of said danger in a way that would never reach and leave Cersei as a credible threat afterwards, while also opening up a possible Jon vs Daenerys for the "grand finale"...


    Quote:
    Nah. That stuff is too twisty. How can the White Walkers be good guys? They massacre wildlings. R’hllor’s not even a real character, and the story has done not nearly enough with Bran to justify turning him into a grave threat to the world.


I said "good guys", damn ye mrpo ! I'm not sure about what's actually hypothesized, but I think they paint the Raven as a guy tampering with time or whatever for his personal purposes and the Walkers are either unwitting pawns of his or of a deity trying to stop him, I dunno.

In any case, if the cast, showrunners and directors are to be believed, something will happen. They've said in multiple occasions that 3-5 are basically a continuous story, that some crazy stuff will happen in 5, that Bran still has an important role to play, that they cannot confirm if the Walkers are 100% done for, that they cried when they read the ending, etc. I highly doubt that dealing with Cersei is what they're going on about.

And from some seemingly credible leaks, even if they do nothing of the sort with Bran, we're gonna have rushed developments anyway, which is my point here - they do not give a damn anymore, zvelf, they just want to end it!


    Quote:
    Eh, the White Walkers are magical beings. You’re trying to apply rules that aren’t that clear or specific.


Really, you're just gonna go with "it's magic"?! I would expect that from a random viewer, not people who've delved into various fictional universes.

Dragonglass and Valyrian steel – what is their common magical denominator? Is it not, well... dragonfire? Had we not just seen the NK tank a direct blast of dragonfire? "But Valyrian steel supposedly has other magical influences as well", would someone advocate. Possibly, but if it's the non-dragon magic that's making it effective, then that would mean that Valyrians discovered magic to one-shot the NK at random, as they were removed millennia from him and probably treated him like a fairy tale too, without anyone else ever knowing about it - how mighty convenient!

The mental gymnastics required here are ridiculous! Had they at least shown him to use a cold aura to defend himself or something other than just being physically invulnerable to it, it would have been acceptable.


    Quote:
    That they would be affected was established last season.


Unless you're not talking about the Beric thing, nope. We saw that wights would die if "their" Walker died, which is reasonable, but anything else is just something he thought to be true without having tried it, akin to placing their hopes on dragonfire to down the NK.

The NK is a show construct, you know. It's not inconceivable that Martin will give them a leader at some point, but: "As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have."

Martin is not building a threat that can be instantly eradicated. Heck, forget Martin, how did they manage the first time the Walkers were around in the show's past? Had they killed the NK somehow, the threat would not exist today. Had they just destroyed his entire army, they did not have Valyrian steel to make him feel threatened, so he could have just kept on fighting by himself and raising new undead left and right till he prevailed. If they somehow had magics to push him back, why did they leave him be? Why not pursue him to the end of the world instead of waiting him out to build a new army and return?

There are clear differences between the Walkers and the rest of the undead, zvelf, both in the way they act independent of the NK (they share his purpose, he leads them, but they are not mindless drones merely existing through his power and will), but especially in their origin, which is through transformation of a living creature, not reanimation of a dead body. It's more or less the replication of the NK's origin, so if he can outlive his creators, why wouldn't they?

Why did the NK even go to the trouble of dealing with the living to create them if they were no different than raised bodies? What was their purpose? Why not just be him and an army of wights? They sure as heck didn't do anything he couldn't have done alone, so why have if not for insurance that your purpose does not die with you? Why even preserve them during the fighting and not just send them to kill Bran?

I honestly thought they had included him to juxtapose against the heroes, to give that faction a face and credibility beyond that of a nameless horde. Now I see that it was mostly as their ticket for an easy way out of the Walkers storyline...


    Quote:
    Either the prophecies are wrong, which is no big deal, or maybe they’re not and they just need more clarification. In any case, prophecies are a tired trope in the fantasy genre that people need to put less stock in.


I did not expect Jon to literally bust out a flaming sword and become Azor Ahai. I mocked Bk for all his Jaime PTWP theories. But a large part of the lore and narrative of that world is built on prophecies (even Cersei stuff). You may not like it, think its trite, but if you're gonna fooking resurrect characters as part of the tied storylines, you must somewhat see it through!

And don't gimme no "wrong/more clarification" excuses! Again, there's room to be wrong once (Stannis), but two (Jon), three times (Daenerys)? Heck, with that retcon of the "eyes", Melisandre and the Lord of Light become a gag duo! R'hllor gave her a glimpse of the truth early on (Arya), but kept feeding her stronger leads to false candidates, even going as far as resurrecting one to have a hearty laugh at her expense, that it \(teehee\) ?



    Quote:
    Huh? There’s a lot more to Jon than dealing with the NK – like overcoming his apparently being a bastard to ascend to Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and his true parentage being revealed making him the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Stannis was always a red herring. Melisandre was pivotal in this past episode, not meaningless. Bran’s arc turned out to be more about the Night King and the White Walkers and less so about Bran himself and so his arc was not meaningless. He also gave Arya the dagger that finished the job. Daenerys’ arc is the most unaffected of all except that she lost her Dothraki forces. As she noted to Sansa, Jon waylaid her, but her ultimate purpose always lay elsewhere.


Daenery's arc is, in a sense, the most affected of all! Since the very day she was given dragons, people reasonably expected that she'd eventually end up being the primary defender of the realm against dem ice zombos. We knew about no dragonglasses and Varyliar steelses then, nope. And it doesn't matter what the character herself thought, nor is it what you say - she initially thought she was getting a Dothraki army for her brother's sake, yet we saw how that kept changing over the years. Same with Jon, who only thought he was going to spend his days as a member of the Watch, or Sansa, who was looking forward to ruling besides Joffrey...

As for Jon, we been watching the same show? I know you're on record here that the Wall things were the most boring aspects of the show for you, but Jon's entire arc has been about becoming aware of the NK's threat and getting everyone else to recognize and focus on it too, not climbing up the social ladder. And both Stannis and Melisandre were deeply intertwined with this, their arcs served the purpose of promoting his.

As such, how was Melisandre pivotal in last episode? You mean how she scared the Hound off so he could be poised to rescue Arya? Maybe if she hadn't blundered her one purpose of finding and leading her prophesied champion, the Wall would still be up and "guarding the realms of men", and she wouldn't have to rely on a follower of another god to save the day...

Finally, not sure what you mean to say with your Bran comments. He's arc became more about the NK, but him ending up as mere bait does not render it meaningless? Even if he gave the knife having some vague feeling that it would matter, he would have given it anyway, even as mere Bran. Why did the NK care so much about defeating him to begin with? I certainly didn't see a reason to be so fervent about it. In fact, even if he turns out to be a baddie, the Walkers confrontation should have been more of a moment for him.

Oh, and what was Arya's arc? To get the means for avenging her family. But she just happened to be there, so why not just do everyone a favor and kill the guy that was on their minds all this time...


    Quote:
    To an extent but from a drama standpoint, Cersei, a well developed human character, was always going to trump the Night King in importance. As anticlimactic as taking out the NK first might feel, it’s less anticlimactic than taking out Cersei first.


Who goes after whom is not the narrative. The narrative is humans fighting amongst themselves for petty reasons while a grand threat is coming for them all. They either put their differences aside and try to survive together or they all die.

Jon not only failed to unite all of them against the threat, but he actually gave the Walkers the means to break the Wall precisely because he tried to do so! And yet, they survived. And why did they survive? Don't you know, because of actually fighting amongst themselves! Arya both ended up with the skills and the weapon to end the threat because of the backstabbers and machinators of the realm! Heck, had Daenerys ignored Jon and just focused on Cersei, they might have even dealt with it without so many casualties!

"But that's why it's good, because it defies stereotypes", no? Well, no! This is just makes the narrative a joke, with an abomination of a moral! If the threat could so casually be dealt with, then it was never dire! It's not all the schemers who were wrong, it's everyone with a decent cell in their body! Cersei was not a moron, she was right! Out of all the possible scenarios that would have doomed her, the only one that served her ends happened! What a brainiac!

But it's not that I'm not aware of Martin's affinity for the ending of LOTR (Saruman in Shire), and his characters could not possibly stay reconciled, so resuming a lesser conflict amongst the survivors afterwards was to be expected. But Cersei could still have sent whatever Crown forces remained up north, while keeping the GC secret and in reserve close by, to either try and save the game if all looked lost or put down the survivors. Same ending, through a reasonable route. But there's just no need for a narrative anymore - they just do the first thing they can think of to end where they want, in-world sense be damned!


    Quote:
    Why?


This is the one I know will resonate the least with you, but I still think of Ned as the hero of the story. While he may have died, I saw his principles and values carry on through Robb first, then Jon. Ned is derided as a fool by a lot, but if Jon were to be pivotal in ending the threat, it would have been his character's catharsis.

Bran, Sansa, Arya... they are no longer Ned's children, if they ever were. Arya, in particular, followed a path of vengeance that transformed her into a sociopath that would shock Ned to his very core! Theon ended up with more of Ned's values than Arya...


    Quote:
    Agreed that would have been more spectacular. And while the Dothraki charge was stupid, that’s just how the Dothraki fight – they charge with horses. They would never have accepted cowering behind castle walls waiting for the enemy to come. That would have been even more logistically wrong.

    I think it’s impossible that the production did not consider this and went with the idea that the Dothraki would simply refuse using weapons that aren’t their own. Basically, Dany brought the Dothraki into the worst possible type of fight for them where due to the magical nature of their foes, lots of flexibility is required and the Dothraki only fight one way.


Er... what? The Dothraki are not a separate faction that volunteered to be there - Daenerys commands, they obey. If the could "refuse this, refuse that", they never would have crossed the sea to begin with.

And I guarantee you that no one from the production is giving these things much thought, if any. They just wanted a cool charge scene with flaming swords that would rid the show of the Dothraki, no time for reason and little details!

Also, I never said they should have been put behind walls, but that does not negate the fact that you only send cavalry to die like that when you just want them dead...


    Quote:
    Not spectacular enough? I agree they could have been done better. Preventable? Some had to die or there would be no drama, so not preventable.


I said that they were preventable "as presented", not that no one should have died. They basically engineered moronic situations to kill the people they had decided. Daenerys lands her dragon right when they've gained air superiority and just stands there, waiting for the dragon to panic? Sam, who's not a fighter, takes a place in the front ranks? Theon, who would have probably stood his ground, is manipulated into charging? Melisandre... I guess that one's passable, but had she truly expended her power, she should have died after the feats that seemingly did expend it, not at a convenient later time (not to mention, she did not seem to use personal power, just prayed for divine intervention, but anyway...).


    Quote:
    This is a big nit-picky. Maybe the crypts are made of clay?

    How would you ever know that it was Ned when he has no head? It seemed like the wights at least need a head to function in any case.


Who cares how it would work?! They sure as heck don't, so just go all out and give us the fireworks!


    Quote:
    I’m not sure what you’re getting around here, but the Beric-cade blocks all zombies!


I'm saying that Beric was quite far from them, dying, with undead clinging on him, yet he somehow stumbled his way inside the room to die beside them. But what I'm really saying is that there were a ton of dead that should have come back to life in that room, with the probable exception of Beric. Though maybe they were just bodies from the NK's soldiers...


    Quote:
    No, there have been too many last minute rescues.


Their entire faith is about defeating the Walkers! Melisandre had gone away but knew where and when she had to return to, so you might as well have her go back to Essos and relay her info of the imminent danger on fellow priests. A dozen or so priests would not have changed anything, but they could certainly have given us a few more exotic fight scenes.


    Quote:
    Which I desired as well in my original post. Still from a purely strategic point, it makes sense that they didn’t. If the Walkers put themselves in danger, they put thousands of their wights in danger. It’s like Ramsay refusing to fight Jon, why would he when he has the superior numbers.


It both makes sense and it doesn't. What I mean is that since the NK himself is in the front lines and the show has their fate connected to his, there's no point in protecting them. Again, if nothing matters and we're there just for the spectacle, make it a damn impressive one!


    Quote:
    Well, the series has been good at upending expectations like this. Jaime and Ned never finished their duel properly because of interference. Jaime never got into another true swordfight when he was 100% in the series before losing his hand. Renly never got to engage his forces because a shadow killed him. Jon vs. the NK is one more cliché upended. We’ll see if they make an exception for Cleganebowl.


If you mention the above things as good, you're hopeless...


    Quote:
    Yeah, they messed up here. Bran needed to be doing something useful aside from documenting the action with ravens. My own preference is him enlisting Nymeria and her wolf pack. If they attacked the WW and gave Arya her opening, that would have been even more dramatic.


Or maybe he could have warged into Jon and had him fight the NK to give Arya her opening - everyone wins \(zorro\) !





    Quote:
    No one would have been satisfied except you with everyone dying except Jon and Dany!


Believe me, there are plenty of people who've long lost any investment on the story of the show and would love an ending where everyone just died and the NK won. But if you want a bit more drama and to allow for a glimmer of hope for the humans in a Cersei vs NK fight, at least one of them and a dragon have to escape (though I certainly wouldn't mind if no one survived at all and we moved on to NK just curbstomping the entire world in the remaining 3 episodes \(devil\) ).


Drax the Legend, Captain of the Fist, The Starwalker, The Jade Slayer


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