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Superman's Pal
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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,682
In Reply To
christian

Member Since: Tue Aug 01, 2017
Posts: 21
Subj: Re: Episodes that don't work...(Some bad and good ones from season 4 of DS9)...
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 at 07:40:11 pm EST (Viewed 103 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Episodes that don't work...(Some bad and good ones from season 4 of DS9)...
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 at 02:04:08 pm EST (Viewed 104 times)


Some points in your original post for some reason I forgot to respond to: I was just going to say I agreed that Shran would have been a great regular addition to Enterprise, he was probably my favorite character on that show.

I agree that Klingon honor was a TNG concept, or maybe just a Worf concept. The TOS Klingons were thugs. The ones in TNG like Duras and Gowron were both willing to do dishonorable things in order to win which seems a Romulan trait.

I also agree that the Ferengi changed to much by the end, it was forced. They always said the Ferengi represented 20th Century humams as opposed to 24th century Starfleet. But they can't be modernized in just a couple of years.

And the destruction of Romulus shouldn't destroy the Empire. It's like the Klingon Empire dying because it lost one fuel source makes no sense in The Undiscovered Country.


    Quote:
    You mean you didn't like the mirror universe story? I thought they did a pretty good job with that. And the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan government was good too. In fact, there should have been a lot more of that story. The Romulans would always have been aware of Vulcan, having originated there. But, the Vulcans would not be aware of the Romulans being their own people. That could have been interesting. I didn't mind the augments, and the tie in to Klingon engineering as an explanation for how the Klingons looked in the original series. Missing from the entire series is more from the Rigellians. They were the first species to join the Federation after the original founders. Most of the time they're MIA.

It was maybe the cheesiest Mirror Universe story yet, but it's always sort of nice to see the old TOS sets dragged out again. But once again it seemed very fan-servicey. Not just a mirror story but also time travel, TOS callback to the Tholians, etc. It's a fine line. Trials and Tribble-ations was a fun little comedy episode. Dumb but fun. On ENT it felt every bit as silly but as if they wanted it to be serious. Maybe it would have worked better with more jokes. Ironically I just finished the mirror episodes of Discovery and liked them better even though they also took it seriously. Maybe because they didn't lift as much from the original episode?


    Quote:
    And Data, while tolerable, was just a re-hash of Spock. The twist being a being in search of more humanity, instead of less. They just reversed Spock, and made Data. If you don't like cheap gimmicks, then I can't see how you like Data.

I guess I thought that was the genius of Data, that instead of copying Spock they reversed him. A logical man searching for emotion. Sure it's a gimmick just like Spock. But they got a lot of mileage out of putting Data in different situations. I felt the character was well fleshed out and grew more than any other on the show. There was really no equivalent on DS9 which was a good thing. When they put another Vulcan on Voyager I thought why bother? We've seen that. Only this time a full Vulcan instead of half, so less internal conflict. Tim Russ did fine with what they gave him but he usually wasn't that interesting. And to make it worse they had the Doctor who like you said, is kind of a Data retread. He had more personality which gave him a much shorter journey to humanity. And then we get Enterprise which gives another Vulcan! Enough with the Vulcans already. Should've had Shran from the beginning. Again, no offense to T'Pol, she was one of the better characters. I just wish they stop treading the same well-worn ground. DS9 only benefited from its differences.


    Quote:
    The one major complaint about Voyager that I tend to agree with, is the Starfleet-Maquis angle not played out more. If they had, that would have made Chakotay more interesting (although I still liked him). He was a better actor than Ryker, but paled compared to Kira. With the Maquis angle, it would have moved his performance closer to that of Kira, and would have made him shine more. I don't mind that they focused on the Doctor and Seven. They were the best two characters. You could argue that they are rehashes of Data, but since Data is a rehash of Spock, then I don't see a problem. Plus, Spiner was a noticeably weaker actor than Picardo and Ryan. I thought the show took off after Seven joined. The first three seasons were weak, the last four were great. And the finale? I stand by it being better than TNG (which was soooo boring), and DS9 (which gave the appearance of the writers running out of time and having to cram way too much into the finale). Voyager used the Borg in the finale, because they were a fan favorite, and the Borg always had the technology for Voyager to return to the Alpha Quadrant. Janeway didn't time travel just so 'Chakotay could have a girlfriend.' She did it because she loved Seven like an adopted daughter. She also did it because her dear friend Tuvok was reduced to an invalid ( I found that scene particularly touching - but you have to like the characters to feel that way). She couldn't have time traveled to the beginning of her journey to save the entire crew, because they only encountered the Borg half way through, and let's face it, Janeway did it to save her 'daughter.' Maybe that motive is flawed, or maybe it's more human. That's debatable. But, it made for a great finale, better than all the rest.

I would agree that Beltran is probably a better actor than Frakes, but they gave him far less to do. I find Spiner is his many roles to be versatile, he can create a lot of very different characters like Bob Wheeler on Night Court, but most of them are quite cheesy like that. Data I find to be a really solid, believable character because of his earnestness. Picardo also did well with the Doctor. In a lot of his non-Trek roles like Innerspace or Stargate he can also be very cheesy. I don't know that I could say Spiner or Picardo are better than the other, Trek is the high point for both.

My problem with the Voyager finale is that time travel can open too big a can of worms when you use it for personal reasons. It's better used by accident. Even using it purposefully like in Star Trek IV they are just trying to save the present, not change history. Certainly not their personal history. Seriously, if it's that easy to time travel why didn't Kirk go back and save David? It becomes something that elimates any sort of dramatic consequenes. If future Janeway can travel back to correct an event in her own life, why not prevent Voyager from being taken by the Caretaker in the first place? Why not save Kes who was also like a daughter to her? Why not go back one more week than she did and save poor Joe Kelly who after 7 years died in the second-to-last episode? If you start picking and choosing who lives and dies it kind of deflates the dramatic tension.

Add to that Voyager never did anything interesting with the Borg. Well, Seven was good and Scorpion was okay because they brought back the collective instead of the queen. The Queen made no sense really. If it had just been Scorpion and Seven it would have been fine. But with Dark Frontier and Unimatrix Zero the Borg kept getting more pointless and easier to defeat each time. And Seven's parents apparently were studying the Borg even before "Q Who?" It made no sense. So making the Borg the final villain was kind of sad. Why not the Hirogen, Vidiians, even the Kazon to bring it full circle? Just say they all formed an anti-Voyager alliance. Something.


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