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Subj: If you think being pro war on the internet is bravery, then you're setting a pretty low bar for bravery lol
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 at 01:57:51 am EDT (Viewed 232 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Yeah, I wasn't speaking hypothetically or normatively.
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 at 12:17:42 am EDT (Viewed 133 times)
That's okay - it's not like I expected you to apologize after falsely accusing me of an egregious point of view, admitting you were wrong, and then not being big enough.
LGDB: Let's just say I don't think you'd apologize if you were in my position. lol
Also who cares? Are you telling me your feelings are actually hurt about this?
You're taking a chance by not doing anything, too! Instead of getting caught up with phrases, focus on the substance of what I'm saying.
LGDB: I am focusing on the substance. That's what the vast majority of this post has been about. And yes we're both taking chances. I'm just calculating the very real risk of serious military escalation into my risk assessment.
And you seem to think that the West giving Ukraine unlimited resources is an aggressive action that could force nuclear war. I think your position is ridiculous, silly, and overly fearful.
LGDB: I think the Russians could certainly view it as escalatory, and that's where it would likely lead. It doesn't matter if we think it's somehow within the realm of fair play, if the Russians view US involvement as imminent or if they think our activities bleed into direct interference they're likely to escalate things, if only as a posture. But as I say that could just as easily spur our own further escalation. Some of this is also just basic military history. That doesn't mean the lesson of history is that you never have to risk military action, but this kind of escalation is pretty recurrent in any number of occasions we could look at in detail.
The more immediate issue of practicality is that it's not just a matter of giving them weapons. There's a tremendous troop deficit and there's a matter of training those troops. We can't just magic those things into existence even if we were willing to finance them indefinitely, and this would all take time that they simply don't have. They're losing ground by the day while their infrastructure is being decimated or secured by Russian forces. Even if the political will existed which overall it clearly doesn't, which is why we haven't already intervened.
As far as fearful, anyone that's not afraid of the consequences of a full scale conflict with another nuclear power isn't thinking clearly.
These, to me, are all chicken fears. This attitude sounds more appropriate for someone who should join KFC.
LGDB: Well as I've mentioned before, your position isn't any braver since you're not going to be doing any of the fighting from what I can tell. Your bravery seems to manifest mostly in, let's call it, a symbolic fashion. Of the two of us I believe I'm the one who was "brave enough" to actually put on a uniform and go down range. Have you done anything other than talk about things on the internet? To be honest... I'm almost 40 now and couldn't really give a good screw about proving to you, myself, or heaven above how brave I am. But... I have to say being told I'm being chicken by a civilian who never went through basic much less left the wire, does strike me a TAD ironic lol
I don't care if you ban me. The last time, I was able to post at will. Unless you guys want to delete me all the time, okay, but really - I'm here because I want to be here, not because you let me. But, it does grow tiring debating people like you, so I may just voluntarily leave. I actually do have better and more interesting things to do.
To answer your question, though, you said that nobody is saying what I'm saying, and then I pointed you to Jocko who suggested that we give Ukraine unlimited resources; and that Ukraine would win, under that circumstance, by attrition. I'm saying that I'm saying what Jocko is saying. That's what I meant.
LGDB: If you're not willing to abide by the board rules, I'm afraid you'll have to be banned and deleted and so on. It's not much more than the touch of button. And not to be too glib here, from a technical standpoint... I think we can work it out. lol
Also, I'd say if you have more interesting things to be doing, you should probably be doing those things.
Dually noted about your agreement with Jocko. I disagree with it, but I never commented on this. It doesn't seem something worth debating.
Jocko is making a normative claim, you're making a descriptive one, and context clues? What? My English is pretty good, and I can certify that that made no sense.
LGDB: A normative claim is prescriptive. It suggests what OUGHT to be done. A descriptive claim is about what is happening or is the case. This is the distinction I'm making. Does this still not make any sense to you?
You made false accusations against me. And even after you admitted you were wrong, you didn't apologize. And you expect me to be kosher?
I don't care if I can't post here anymore.
LGDB: If you feel like "false accusations" have been made against you that doesn't give you license to decide which rules you'd like to follow.
I admitted I was mistaken about what you said. Not that there was anything that I needed to apologize for. And I think we both know you've been far more insulting at times, and been far less apologetic.
I should be clear that it's not too late to implement what I said could have already been done. Ukraine can still win, if we act and do what Jock Willink is saying. To pretend like it's all sunk and now no-win is that chicken attitude again.
LGDB: OH I know. I follow what you mean. You think if we implement your strategy everything would work out. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'm not pretending like anything's "all sunk," I'm acknowledging what's likely to happen. I find that's a better place to start that beginning from a sort of moralistic fantasy position.
And again, there's that chicken attitude talk again lol You know what I think would be a good way to prove you're not a chicken? Join the military and go into a combat oriented MOS. Be an 11B! Put your money where your mouth is, as it were. You can't fight the bad guys with a keyboard lol
Before you "ban" me, I'd like to know something. Why did you join the military? Was it out of patriotism, love for country, or did you have nothing else going on (i.e. no money for college) and you needed a career starting point? This concern of yours, that supplying Ukraine is some escalatory action that would lead to a direct U.S./Russia war (possibly nuclear), is what I'd expect from a terrified democrat who never lifted a single dumbbell in their life. I know you're a democrat, but given that you served, I'd have expected just a LITTLE more manlike attitude. I'm sure you're tough, to some degree, but your attitude - it honestly reminds me of Lochlan from Braveheart who always wanted to negotiate. I swear that you would have been on his side, in the movie.
LGDB: Well first of all if you think that what you're doing here by having these loud, boastful "strong" positions that don't seem to relate in any way to your own actions or experience is an act of manhood... I'd say maybe your picture of manhood is more imaginary than based in the real world. Opinions cost you nothing, you don't have to do anything to earn them, and you risk nothing by having them. Not exactly man stuff. Second stop basing your ideas of manhood off of movies like Braveheart lol
For instance, you should consider there's actually a diversity of political opinions in the military. No question it leans conservative, but there are literally hundreds if not thousands of people who have both been in fire fights or were nearly killed by IEDs, and then got up the next day to do it again, and then also voted for the Democrats. I think the thing you should consider is that there are no political opinions you can espouse on the internet that make you tough, brave, or a man of any kind.
Also, I'm not a Democrat. Believe it or not that word actually corresponds to certain things in reality, like political beliefs, voting record, ideology and so on. It's not just a word that just means anyone to YOUR left.
As far as why I joined the military, I joined shortly after 9/11. The country had just been attacked. It was crazy then. It looked like it was going to happen again. I didn't know much about politics and it seemed like what needed to be done. It seemed like war was going to happen and as everybody was saying, better to fight it over there than over here. And I was 19. Like every 19 year on the face of the planet, I had something to prove. I also had some friends and family member who had served, and in some pretty highspeed fields that made it seem like a much more manageable, not so mystified process of how you go from some nobody kid off the street into a real soldier.
And I don't judge people's service based on why they joined. I mean, whether you have noble ideals or you end there out of desperation isn't really important to anyone in uniform. It's THAT you're in uniform and what you do in uniform that anyone gives a damn about.
And so my question to YOU is... since you have this attitude about war and manhood... why DIDN'T you join?
Under Biden, I'm sure that what we'll actually be sending won't be enough. Under a real leader, though, it would have been/could still be.
LGDB: Well the next presidential election is 2024. Do you think the Ukrainians can hold out that long?
---the late great Donald Blake
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