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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
Late Great Donald Blake 

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,563
Subj: Re: I'm not excusing anyone's behavior... including our own.
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 at 08:24:10 am EST (Viewed 183 times)
Reply Subj: I'm not excusing anyone's behavior... including our own.
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 12:20:56 pm EST (Viewed 289 times)

    First of all in terms of imperialism if you're entertaining some fiction where the US is somehow a good actor and Russia and China are worse actors, I have a lot of world history to introduce you to. So any moral calculus you're operating with built on the notion that whatever the Russians or the Chinese want is inherently bad is incoherent. Especially if you hold the US to the same standards.

Please stop assuming I am an uneducated idiot.

    Second we can't control Putin's actions. We can react to them to various effects, but primarily we have influence over our own actions. There is no excuse for the existence of NATO. As the global hegemon we would have had the same power to put the same sanctions in place. What benefit does it possibly serve except to aggravate tensions unnecessarily. I mean the idea that we have this multinational alliance against a single nation, despite the Soviet Union being disband is bound to make the Russians a bit paranoid, don't you think?

Sort of. There are very valid reasons for Russia to be concerned with NATO and its existence is both driving force and excuse. I do not think Putin's goals change much in the end.

The US has alot of power but coordination would seem to work better to me. At least in terms of sanctions and reacting to a bad actor. It may not specially need to be nato but the effective end result is the same.

Russia has done enough to cause that sort of concern. If we want to argue chicken and the egg and what cause led to what effect then fine but to me Russia would have probably started crap even sooner.

    And let me go ahead and disabuse you of any US State Department myths: Putin isn't trying to recreate the Soviet Union. That's are no plans of world domination, so far as we know. Clearly he has a nationalist streak and is specifically interested in a unified relationship with those nations who he believes are part of some greater Russkiy Mir, but you'll notice he's not annexing Belarus.
    Recreating the Soviet Union? Russia has a smaller GDP than Spain for God's sake. But it does make sense that they'd prefer not to have a US vassal state directly to their West, one where we've encouraged NO guarantees that Ukraine will never join NATO. Putin has literally articulated this as a red line since 2007. So what possible good does NATO serve--much less not denying Ukrainian membership into NATO--outside of servicing the needs of the military industrial complex?

How is it world domination and restoring the soviet union. Doing one does not lead to another.

Putin's outlook is always shaped by his previous experiences and returning things to a power structure. His domestic policy as I understand it is to return to the glorious past. It may not specifically be restore it in every sense but to me it sure seems that way. I am not sure why Belarus proves anything. As it is easy enough to make counter arguments about a piece meal approach


    And NONE of the above in anyway excuses Putin's actions. It's fundamentally wrong to invade other nations unilaterally (you know, like our MO), and against international law to unilaterally decide the borders of neighboring states. But diplomacy actually means recognizing the legitimate grievances of the the enemy, not just summarily denying them because they're the bad guy.

Not sure why you keep thinking I am excusing past us actions. I am just more skeptical of trusting excuses from places known to be even worse. It is not hard to make an excuse based in reality to achieve something you were going to do anyway.

I think nato has pros and cons but there is a reasons so many countries wanted in on the eastern block and Russia was at least part of it.

I do think the US is hardly a golden child of all that is right and in various conflicts, particularly the more recent ones in the middle east, opened itself up to hypocrisy and excuses for Russia to do what it is or china potentially.

But I think those countries would do such things anyway. And systems like nato are a deterant. A flawed one but one none the less.

    --- the late great Donald Blake

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