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Ancient One 

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,925
In Reply To

Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021
Subj: Re: LGBD, please clarify this dispute
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 at 11:37:50 pm EST (Viewed 204 times)
Reply Subj: Re: LGBD, please clarify this dispute
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 at 07:38:57 pm EST (Viewed 190 times)

    I already said that they have linguistic differences. That doesn't mean that they're substantively different, though. My position exactly matches Jerry Coyne's. If not, tell me where it differs. And so I want you to also say that Jerry Coyne is wrong, and then I'll stop and we can drop this. Is Jerry Coyne wrong?

No, he's not wrong. If he'd said that pantheism was ALWAYS another term for atheism, he would have been wrong. But he didn't say that. He said 'often', and that's correct in the view of many atheists and religious commentators.

So I'll tell you where your view differs from Coyne's.

He said it's 'often' the same as atheism, and that is a tacit admission the reverse is true, and 'often' pantheism is not the same as atheism.

Is it your position that often pantheism is different from atheism?

If your answer is 'no', then your position is clearly not the same as Coyne's.

    You already described what he believed. And I told you that my belief matches his. You also said you understood that Jerry does NOT believe that pantheism believes in the supernatural. However, this is opposite of your belief that pantheism DOES believe in the supernatural. You even pulled out a dictionary to argue this point on how I don't understand things and that I'm wrong because pantheism believes in the supernatural. So, I don't see how you're being rational and consistent.

Because you either fail to, or refuse to see nuance in arguments. That's clear from statements you've made like 'I've yet to meet an ethical atheist'. Either you've met VERY few atheists, or you're just plain wrong, or refuse to accept them as ethical because they don't fit some worldview of yours.

    I follow what you're trying to do but a pantheist, whether Type A or B, wouldn't believe in the supernatural or ever conflict with an atheist on that matter. Also, pantheism doesn't require any rituals. There's no such thing as a practicing pantheist. And since there's no discrepancy of behaviors between pantheists and atheists, your example of Guy A and Guy B - who both identify as Christians - is not a strong analogy. You relied on a difference of behaviors to distinguish the two, and this can't be transferred to pantheism vs. atheism.

Wrong. Here are some quotes from actual pantheists.

1) "Pantheists are a bit further along than your average dualist. Fundamentalist Christianity is dualistic, considering only God’s transcendence, and rejecting God’s immanence (“dwelling within”). Their exception is that they accept God having indwelt Jesus Christ, but reject the same God indwelling the rest of humanity, let alone the entire manifest universe.

That a huge step ahead, relatively speaking.

But the problem with classical pantheism is that it limits God to visible nature. The universe is considered divine, but there is nothing beyond it.

By comparison, the panentheist also affirms the divine Presence within every speck and particle of Creation as the very substance and Soul of it’s existence. But they go one very important step further, in considering that while God pervades manifest existence, God also extends infinitely beyond it".

2) "Pantheism is the believe and lived religion that everything is God. This is more than just that God is in all things. It includes that. It also includes the idea that God is only immanent in all things, and that there is no transcendent God. Pantheism can also recognize specific divinities within specific objects. Shinto, a native religion of Japan, is pantheist in this way. All things contain the Divine, and particular spirits, kami, are present in important natural items and shrines".

Many pantheists believe in a god of one sort or another. This is in direct opposition to atheism, which doesn't believe in ANY kind of god.

The quotes can be found here:

And while you're correct in that pantheism doesn't REQUIRE ritual, many pantheists do engage in ceremonial rituals.

    The only difference is how a pantheist and atheist compartmentalize how they understand and describe the universe, and what they call the universe. The pantheist also calls the universe God, and then also tries to explain that we are all part of a collective hive-like conscious. That's it. In substance, beyond compartmentalization and linguistic differences, they are exactly the same. And if being part of a collective hive-like conscious is the difference between non-God and God, then we are again at odds over what "God" means. I don't agree that this characteristic suddenly bumps a universe from non-God to God and that it's rational to tack on godhood so stupidly. And therefore, I'm not willing to grant that they believe in "God".

Perhaps you don't agree with what many pantheists think and won't grant that they believe in god, but that's irrelevant. 'Often', they clearly do.

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