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Post By
Bk Ray
Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,450
In Reply To
Upper_Krust

Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300
Subj: Re: A few comments on your points...
Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 at 12:17:18 pm EDT (Viewed 86 times)
Reply Subj: A few comments on your points...
Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 at 10:10:02 am EDT (Viewed 91 times)




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      Cameron wanted to try to unite his party, which has an ERG (European Research Group) made up of euro sceptic Tories. Outside the Tory party, the average punter doesn't give a toss about the ERG.



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    That's not what led to the Referendum.



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    Cameron was forced into a Referendum by the UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party for those not familiar) Party which was starting to eat into the Conservative vote (note that UKIP WON the previous European election in 2014 beating both Labour and the Conservatives).



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    It was nothing to do with the ERG (at that juncture).


BKR: Yeah, I'd disagree with that. For all intents and purposes UKIP were no where near the size of the Tories or Labour. UKIP have an abysmal record in the general elections and Farage is a multiple time failure with his repeated attempts to become an MP. However there were a number of eurosceptic MPs (which the ERP presented themselves as the face off). For me, this was party politics at it's best (or worst).

I will say, that UKIP may have had a hand in influcing this. But I think party politics led this.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/ex-pm-david-cameron-says-he-doesn-t-regret-calling-n946351


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      Cameron, being Cameron, tried to appease them by offering a European referendum. He's now tried to blame Nick Clegg, by saying he should have stopped him and he never intended to have a referendum. It should be pointed out that Nick Clegg was the leader of the Liberal Democrats who agreed to form part of a coalition.



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    Clegg was even more of a Globalist than Cameron (note Clegg is now some lackey of Mark Zuckerburg so that tells you all you need to know there) but I don't recall him having any influence over Cameron delivering a Referendum.


BKR: This isn't even about Clegg, it's about Cameron's perception of Clegg.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/21/donald-tusk-warned-david-cameron-about-stupid-eu-referendum-bbc

(Again, another refence to the Eurosceptics in the above as well)


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    The Public in 2014 was extremely annoyed with a lot of what was going on in the EU. Cameron went to the EU asking for some concessions. THEY GAVE HIM NOTHING. He returned humiliated with his tail between his legs and was forced by public pressure (and mounting UKIP support) to give us a Referendum.



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      The Tories managed to oust Labour, due to the economic downturn. Despite the Tories increasing the net debt for the UK, they successfully managed to pin the global recession on Gordon Brown. Brown has never been a a charismatic figure. Unfortunately the 'new blood' in Labour wanted to also see the back of Brown, so joined in by pointing the finger at him. The new leaders, Ed Miliband had an unspectacular career.
      Labour members feeling confused with 'New Labour' and 'Not quite so New Labour', then went to even more left of the spectrum to Corbyn.



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    Agreed with most of what you say here. After Brown (who never won an election), Labour has slid dramatically to the Far Left. First with 'Red' Ed Milliband (who politically backstabbed his own 'centrist' brother*) AND now with the even more militant Comrade Corbyn.


BKR: Yes, Labour is more of a leftist party, as oppossed to be closer. I prefer them somewhere inbetween.


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    *Though like many Globalists David Milliband 'fell' upwards into a cushy high paying job...as did George Osbourne...as will Phillip Hammond.



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      Anyway, Cameron and Osborne (Cameron's old buddy and main political ally) never realised just how much they were hated by the public. Eton educated, which much like Harrows tries to justify it's public school fees by instilling a sense of superiority and disdain for the masses. I have worked in a cavalry unit with officers from here and each and every one of them, believes they were born to lead and the average man on the street is an idiot. I could go on about when they tried to court martial me and it backfired but maybe a tale for another day.



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    Cameron gambled with the Referendum and Lost. Osbourne (one of the most slimy Globalists ever) thought he could become leader but he was hated by almost everyone.



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      Anyway, Cameron showed his colours when his austerity measures produced riots in the capital. He cut public services which capped pay in the country, whilst also ensuring politicians got a raise. People like Cameron and Osborne don't need money, their family wealth is massive. They do it for the status of power and advancement of their family status, not for the betterment of their citizens. They have a complete overestimation of their ability and a delusional underestimation of the great British public. They forget themselves that they entered an arena where they are the servants and the public are the masters.



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    I disagree the austerity measures 'Produced' riots in the capital. I think Anarchists will look for any excuse to riot at the drop of a hat.



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    I DO agree Cameron and Osbourne were self-interested globalists. But the fact that Cameron gave us a referendum at all shows he wasn't an out and out puppet.



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    I'm still on the fence about the pros and cons of the Austerity measures. We saw at the last budget (when Austerity was officially ended) that it HAS helped the economy massively. Its idiocy that the Country should keep increasing its debt (putting us in the pockets of Bankers/Globalists forever) but you have to temper that with the human cost at the other end of the poverty scale (something that was exacerbated by the 8 million people the country has taken in since 2001).


BKR: Net debt has increased over the Tories. We don't hear anything about the deficit anymore, because the press and tories don't want to focus on this anymore.


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      Cameron did a truly dreadful campaign to remain in the EU. He convinced Obama to tell the UK, they would be 'back of the queue' in any trade deals. It seemed artificial of Obama, he clearly did it with a nod and a wink from the PM. Now, the UK, like any other electorate hate being threatened or undermined by our political servants.



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    I didn't like being threatened and talked down to by Obama. His intervention helped the Leave campaign immeasurably. So "Thanks Barack!" \:\-\)


BKR: It was so unlike Obama. It was so forced and it did aggravate a lot of people. Just Cameron thinking the public could be bullied.


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    I think the only person who did more for the Leave campaign than Obama was Eddie Izzard on Question Time (UK's biggest politics show for those who don't know) the week before the vote. Never seen a more condescending, obnoxious display in my life. So "Thanks Eddie!" \:\-\)


BKR: I forgot about this. Not sure what the hell Izzard was doing on QT. The amount of self assured arrogance coming from him made him look like a petulant child.


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      All the press and surveys predicted Remain to win.



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    Weirdly not unlike another election that happened in 2016...funny that. Almost like the mainstream media is trying to deceive people.



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      I recall voting and I very nearly voted leave myself. Not because I wanted to leave, but because I hated that idiot Cameron, I hated the hypocrisy of austerity and I wanted to be a tight race as a protest vote to Cameron. I didn't in the end but given there was much misinformation and no clarity on Brexit, I believe that quite a few people did vote out as a protest.



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    Are you from London by chance?


BKR: Nah, I'm a Devonshire boy.


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    What parts of the Brexit argument were you unclear about?


BKR: The amountof money saved for the NHS, what would happen to places like Cornwall and Wales who receive EU funding, aspcects of immigration, the divorce bill, how we would continue to work with our european partners on security intelligence, the Northern Ireland/Ireland border (with it's potential to reopen the troubles). Ironically, how Scotland would react, which with both factors could cause England & Wales to be the only UK countries. Exactly how we would negotiate the trade deals....


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      Now, when you are unsuccessful for whatever reason, it is increasingly easy to point the finger at 'Johnny Foreigner' or for the older generation who are financially secure, they like to dream of a time when the UK was an empire. They fail to see we are in a globalised world.



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    Economic Globalisation doesn't have to mean Political Globalisation. People should be able to hold Governments accountable BUT WE CAN'T because the European Union (like the Soviet Union) is run by UNELECTED, UNACCOUNTABLE Bureaucrats.


BKR: That's just not correct.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/02/19/is-the-european-union-governed-by-unelected-bureaucrats/


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      As soon as the result came in, Cameron's bottle went. He had no plan. No one knew what was supposed to happen next. So he ran away. He's since been trying to provide advice which anyone with any sense tends to ignore. He's made overtures to potentially be a foreign secretary, with no comment from anyone. As for Osborne? May sacked him on the spot.



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    Cameron put all his eggs in one basket and had to fall on his sword.


BKR: Yep


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      May has had an awful job. With a 48/52 split, a compromise is clearly the only way to manage the EU. With a compromise it also means everyone is going to be unhappy. May simply couldn't get the concessions she needed.



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    There is no compromise in a Black & White issue. May should have sided with the Majority of the people...She Didn't...She's Finished.



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      Now, IMO, I think most politicians would like a 2nd referendum.



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    Remainer Politicians want to stop Brexit at all costs and see a 2nd Referendum as one possible solution, even though I doubt they'll win.



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      The people who voted for a protest and those who have genuinely changed thier mind now the realities have sunk in, will be countered by those who are concerned about issues of democracy. There is no clear way to sidestep this issue.



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    We should Leave with No Deal. The time for deals is over. The EU undermined our Democracy. Parliament has undermined our Democracy.



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      I want to remain, I would vote remain in a second vote,



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    Why? If Democracy is to mean anything in this country ever again we need to Leave the EU.


BKR: Yeah, I answer this below. I would prefer a stronger, more economically sound country, which is something I think is more likely with the EU, but I do mention below my concerns over democracy. Tehre's not an easy answer.


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      but realistically, it would leave me with concerns about parliament ignoring the democratic process. I think this is why they are dragging thier feet and they are hoping for public opinion to shift. Which it won't by the margin they need to win.



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    The public are getting more and more annoyed that we haven't left yet. I can see a lot of Remainers changing their vote this time around.



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      Boris will come in as PM. But he won't be able to sway parliament. Rather than risk being undermined, there will either be another General Election and the amount of chaos he will cause - anything could happen.



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    The worst thing that could happen is the overturning of the Referendum Result, if anything is likely to cause Chaos and push people further from the centre ground, that's it.



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    - Boris should be PM (we know he's the best option primarily because he's the one the opposition hates the most).
    - Boris will attempt to take us out with a No Deal.
    - Then we'll see if the allegiances in the Conservative Party put the Conservative Party first or the European Union first if they don't back him in a Vote of No Confidence.
    - If Boris loses the vote of no confidence then expect a General Election and the Conservative Party to start being destroyed by the Brexit Party.


BK Ray: I'm not convinced Boris can get to the vote now that Gove has entered the race. Gove seems more popluar with MPs. Think he may get booted before it goes to the member's vote. Will be interesting....





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