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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162


You guys think he could be the bastard, Aegon? Or do you think it's too late in the show to introduce a new big player? And if he turns out to be Aegon, do you think he will be a pro about it and work for Cersei against his kin? Or did he work his way up in Essos with the purpose of invading Westeros at some point anyway? Could he know about his father's actions and basically hate every faction?


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,934


Way too late in the show. It would only water down Jon's revelation of Targaryen heritage. And there's way too many characters to deal with in six episodes for them to introduce another one now.




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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162


...Littlefinger, huh? I bet you'd care about him then, wouldn'cha \(teehee\) ?!

I don't think it's too late in the show, especially since he will probably be really relevant during the later episodes. And if Martin has an ending planned where either the bastard Aegon ends up getting the throne or the culminating battle is between him and neo-Aegon, they probably have to have him appear in some capacity.

My understasting is that he is a named character and has been cast as such. From a quick wiki check, the book analogue of his character has been into contact with the bastard Aegon, so they could condense it for the show and make his official name an alias that hid his true identity for safety.


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Olorin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 387


I think it's way too late to introduce another very important character. Probably too late to introduce even a slightly important character. There are only 6 episodes left.

And most people who watch the show do not read the books and have a hard enough time keeping track of the characters as it is. This would seem VERY out of nowhere for them.


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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162


...and killed in just one season (if you count runtimes, I believe he had as much time in the spotlight as the new guy can potentially have in this season). He remains my favorite character of the entire show, proving that quality >>> quantity.

And Oberyn is not an outlier. There are a lot of other notable characters that did not last long and have been interesting, like Ned, Robert, Drogo, etc. Or even literal nobodies that have left me with lasting impressions, such as Dickon or the fookin' Legend of Gin Alley (for another scene of whose, zvelf, I'd sacrifice all of Olenna's \(fear\) )! And you can say that for all the seasons the NK has been a part of the show, he has been in precious few scenes and due to his nature is basically a non-character, yet I still am very interested in him because of his status and the menace he personifies. Heck, Arthur Dayne had just one friggin' flashback fight! Was it not better than a billion of the scenes the show's stars have been in and worthy of inclusion?

There absolutely is plenty of time to introduce new and interesting characters, be they major or minor. It's been done time and again. Not to mention, someone correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Davos point at the Golden Company as a possible mercenary army for Stannis way back? So they're not new guys, technically... \(teehee\)


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,613



    Quote:
    And Oberyn is not an outlier. There are a lot of other notable characters that did not last long and have been interesting, like Ned, Robert, Drogo, etc. Or even literal nobodies that have left me with lasting impressions, such as Dickon or the fookin' Legend of Gin Alley (for another scene of whose, zvelf, I'd sacrifice all of Olenna's \(fear\) )! And you can say that for all the seasons the NK has been a part of the show, he has been in precious few scenes and due to his nature is basically a non-character, yet I still am very interested in him because of his status and the menace he personifies. Heck, Arthur Dayne had just one friggin' flashback fight! Was it not better than a billion of the scenes the show's stars have been in and worthy of inclusion?



    Quote:
    There absolutely is plenty of time to introduce new and interesting characters, be they major or minor. It's been done time and again. Not to mention, someone correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Davos point at the Golden Company as a possible mercenary army for Stannis way back? So they're not new guys, technically... \(teehee\)


And don't forget Lyanna Mormont. Yes, I agree they can still introduce good new characters. I'm just not sure the writers are in the right frame of mind to do it, not after they flubbed Euron.





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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162



    Quote:
    And don't forget Lyanna Mormont.


I had originally included her scenes as my sacrifice along with Olenna's, but I edited it out, as a lot of other people would indeed think of her as the embodiment of my point (and not to get into all-out war with you O\:\-\) ).


    Quote:
    Yes, I agree they can still introduce good new characters. I'm just not sure the writers are in the right frame of mind to do it, not after they flubbed Euron.


I will be happy with just a straightforward, competent fighter, regardless of the side he ultimately fights for, so my bar is low...


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Olorin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 387


I do not believe they will introduce a game-changing character this late in the game. It will be too far out of left-field.

It's not about how long they last. It's about when they get introduced and how their actions impact others. All the characters you mentioned may have had little screen time. But they either appeared early or were mentioned early. Their actions had far-reaching impacts on multiple storylines that have played out over multiple years.

For example - Ned may have had little screen time when compared to the whole life of the series. But his death was the catalyst for Arya becoming who she is. It solidified the War of the 5 Kings. Which brought us to where we are now. Years later.

I can't imagine them bringing in a new character of that type of importance with 6 episodes left. We are in the climax of the series.

You and I might also be defining "important" differently. This might be a semantics issue.


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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162


While he never had actual screen time, we know enough about the circumstances of his childhood and how existing characters relate to him, so he can fit right in and interact with pretty much every major player in very interesting ways.

More importantly, far as I know, his faction has not really done anything of note in the books either, so it's not like they had significant material to adapt in the show. But the Golden Company is essentially an army trying to get dat bastard on the Iron Throne, so they will eventually do something in the books, otherwise why did Martin bother with that subplot? So using them in the show but reducing them to just a name, erasing all their book motivations and consequence of future actions, would make no sense to me. If you're gonna erase an entire faction from the books, why not just create a random mercenary army for the show?

I actually think that's the perfect way to introduce a mostly dormant faction that will only matter late in the game. Having not bothered with merely introducing them and randomly giving us a scene every other season to remind us they exist, they can now make it impactful and surprising, which is one of the things the show is known for.

Also, Cersei has no actual leading army figure on her side now, so there's no tension in the event of a battle. Storywise, a random mercenary guy placed against Jon and Daenerys is not interesting enough. Same with Euron, him and Cersei just don't click as a power couple and seem poised to fail, there's nothing of interest there if they win. But if it's "Strickland" & Cersei, their prospects increase dramatically, making a possible final confrontation very interesting (and an early defeat of the Walkers more passable).


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Olorin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 387


Are you a book reader? Before I proceed with my thoughts I just wanted to check. I don't know what to consider a spoiler or not on this board.


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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162


All you need is to reveal that he's Elia's son and pretty much everyone attentive has a pretty good idea about how this guy must feel, what motivates him, how intricate his connection is to current players, etc.


    Quote:
    Are you a book reader? Before I proceed with my thoughts I just wanted to check. I don't know what to consider a spoiler or not on this board.


I'm not a book reader, I just read wikis when I need info on book stuff. I have no problem with spoilers, if that's your concern, so go ahead and say whatever you want without apprehension.


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Olorin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 387


Ok. I wasn't sure if you meant Aegon or Strickland. Because Strickland hasn't been mentioned in the show at all. Neither has Aegon by name (Elia and her "children" were).

Spoilers from books:


In the books, Aegon sails back to Westeros. It is claimed that he is Elia and Rhaegar's child, so that wouldn't make him a bastard. I wasn't sure why you were calling him the bastard Aegon (unless you are think he isn't who he says).

Back to the TV show, if you ask most regular viewers of the show who Elia was, most people wouldn't know right off the bat. I doubt they are going to try and confuse people this late.

And you're right, as far as the books go, the Golden Company and Aegon's story is presumably significant. But there are 2 more books left. The books still aren't close to the climax. The show is. Introducing Aegon to the show now, and having him make a real effort for the thrones, would be equivalent to George RR Martin introducing him halfway through Book 7, having him arrive our of nowhere and take the throne.

The show is surprising. But every surprise has had major implications for future storylines. There are no more future storylines. This is it. This would be shock for pure shock value.



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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162



    Quote:
    Ok. I wasn't sure if you meant Aegon or Strickland. Because Strickland hasn't been mentioned in the show at all. Neither has Aegon by name (Elia and her "children" were).

    Spoilers from books:

    In the books, Aegon sails back to Westeros. It is claimed that he is Elia and Rhaegar's child, so that wouldn't make him a bastard. I wasn't sure why you were calling him the bastard Aegon (unless you are think he isn't who he says).


Maybe I should have been clearer, but I thought since the premise of the thread is that the show may choose to fuse the two, writing "Strickland" would imply bastard Aegon. And to clear up another point of confusion, the official Aegon Targeryen in now Jon in the show, far as I'm concerned, and I am not sure if Targeryen bastards have a distinctive surname or if they too get named after the region they were born in. I am of a mind to use proto- and neo- for distinction, but I also like to remind people that Elia's son should be viewed as a bastard Targeryen now.


    Quote:
    Back to the TV show, if you ask most regular viewers of the show who Elia was, most people wouldn't know right off the bat. I doubt they are going to try and confuse people this late.


Yes, they probably could not place her by name alone, but I'm pretty sure it will only take a few lines to clear up any confusion (Oberyn's sister, the first wife Rhaegar dumped for Jon's mom, etc).


    Quote:
    And you're right, as far as the books go, the Golden Company and Aegon's story is presumably significant. But there are 2 more books left. The books still aren't close to the climax. The show is. Introducing Aegon to the show now, and having him make a real effort for the thrones, would be equivalent to George RR Martin introducing him halfway through Book 7, having him arrive our of nowhere and take the throne.

    The show is surprising. But every surprise has had major implications for future storylines. There are no more future storylines. This is it. This would be shock for pure shock value.


I feel that if we look back at everything that has happened, it's probable that we'll find instances where things have been done purely for shock value, but the real problem here is that we don't know how significant the GC storyline will end up in the books. If they end up doing nothing, why even introduce them in the books, much less the show? If they end up doing something pivotal, the show writers know it and would probably try to include it in some way. And since they are a part of the story but have not done anything by now, reason says they're being saved for something major close to the end.

As for it being the end, we can't know that. There's no way you can rule out that Martin's ending would not be setting up future storylines, because a lot of writers begin their stories knowing full well how they wanna end them. Back when he first conceived it, it's quite possible Martin thought he could wrap it up in a reasonable span of time and then move on to a sequel. So yes, he could have envisioned GC prevailing in the end or surviving and retreating to fight another day.

Moreover, while you may have a personal distaste for such a device, having the end of your storyline influenced and shaped by characters not previously featured in the bulk of your plot is not objectively bad or wrong or whatever. Since you appear to be a fan of his works, Tolkien concluded the First Age in such a way, presenting people with a bittersweet end (in that, yes, the good guys won, but the good guys who won were not the actual characters who were featured in the previous stories and struggles against Melkor, as he had been the ruin of pretty much all of those). And if you discount the Silmarillion as a work of limited appeal, then look no further than the conclusion of Marvel's cinematic saga. Or don't you expect the masses to eat up Captain Marvel in Avengers Endgame, a character introduced just a month ago (heck, a lot will probably not even have watched her movie beforehand, myself included)?

Finally, an overlooked aspect, IMO, is that Martin likes to present his sides more gray than black and white. I believe I've read somewhere that he was fascinated by how Hector and Achilles were both the villain and the hero in the Iliad, depending on which side's perspective you took. That is not something that can currently be said about the prevalent factions of his story, as pretty much everyone decent and moral is on one side, while everyone vile and psychotic on the other (and no one has the charisma of a Tywin, to somewhat gain our favor). But if you present an honorable leader, one who's been wronged by pretty much every major House, it mixes things up and makes them more interesting, especially in the event of a quick NK defeat.

So for me, it would be really interesting to see Jon and Daenerys react to his presence and a possible alliance with Cersei, especially since Jon doesn't really care about becoming ruler and has a morality that will most probably paint the actions that lead to his birth immoral. Like, imagine that Jon does not tell anyone about the annulment, feeling that the bastard was wronged. That would leave Daenerys with no claim, Cersei could have worked out a deal to marry the bastard and remain in power, etc. And it would be supremely ironic if the bastard actually turned out to be Azor Ahai!

What I'm saying is that I don't understand why you'd be so opposed to such a developement. Only interesting things can come from the show not just introducing a random mercenary force, methinks...


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Olorin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 387


Assuming Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was annulled in the books, I wondered whether their children would be bastards. They were married after all. And weren't the children born before the annulment? So would they be bastards? Not sure how that works.

At this point, the show and books are pretty distinct. It's possible the Golden Company and Aegon have an important story in the books. Doesn't mean that they will in the show. So when you say the show writers would try to include it because it's a pivotal part of the books, I guess I just disagree. Here's another way I look at it. If Martin had Elia's son Aegon winning the Iron Throne in the books, the show writers would have introduced him already. Martin's last book came out in 2011. They have had plenty of time.

It's possible that Martin will end Game of Thrones as setting up a sequel of sorts. In that instance, I get the sense that the character would be more important for that theoretical sequel, not so much the here and now. And with the way TV works, who knows it the TV show would touch on that.

I actually do consider it objectively bad to have the end of one's storyline significantly influenced by characters not previously featured. We go on journeys with these characters. Get personally invested in their struggles. So why should I want another character not before seen to be significant in the end? For characters to be significant in the climax of a story, I want to experience their journeys in a significant way. If not, then the end is cheapened.

And my objection to it isn't even really based on what I think is good or bad writing. Or right or wrong for the characters. I just don't think they will bring in Aegon because it would feel very weird for your average show watcher. Of all my friends/family that watch Game of Thrones, I know the most about it by far. Most of my friends/family just watch the show. Every once in a while they will read stuff online about what's going on. But that's pretty much it.

When Lyanna was revealed to be Jon's mom, I had to remind them about Lyanna's backstory. And they didn't get who the father was. I was even asked if Ned was the Dad. When I said it was Rhaegar, I can't tell you how many times I have had to walk them through who Rhaegar was. They thought he was the Mad King, Dany's father. Remember when Ned said "The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground." That confused them. When I explained Rhaegar was her brother, they said "That psycho brother who had the melted gold poured over his head?"

So introducing Aegon now? With a line like "Oh, he's Elia's son." You think that will fly with your average TV watcher?

I respect your knowledge of the series. And I understand where you are coming from and why, from your perspective, introducing Aegon could be an interesting development. I just don't think it would happen. But hey, I've been wrong before.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,613



    Quote:
    As for it being the end, we can't know that. There's no way you can rule out that Martin's ending would not be setting up future storylines, because a lot of writers begin their stories knowing full well how they wanna end them. Back when he first conceived it, it's quite possible Martin thought he could wrap it up in a reasonable span of time and then move on to a sequel. So yes, he could have envisioned GC prevailing in the end or surviving and retreating to fight another day.


Nevermind the books. If Warner Bros. is smart, they will make a Game of Thrones movie (or a few movies) a few years from now that's a sequel to the series featuring the surviving characters. That's why they shouldn't kill off Jon, Arya, Sansa, and some supporting characters like Sam, Gilly, Davos, Missandei, etc. They should even keep Varys around. He could make a heel turn.


    Quote:
    Finally, an overlooked aspect, IMO, is that Martin likes to present his sides more gray than black and white. I believe I've read somewhere that he was fascinated by how Hector and Achilles were both the villain and the hero in the Iliad, depending on which side's perspective you took. That is not something that can currently be said about the prevalent factions of his story, as pretty much everyone decent and moral is on one side, while everyone vile and psychotic on the other (and no one has the charisma of a Tywin, to somewhat gain our favor). But if you present an honorable leader, one who's been wronged by pretty much every major House, it mixes things up and makes them more interesting, especially in the event of a quick NK defeat.


This is a good point. Cersei needs another notable strong ally besides the one-note sneering Euron. Strickland with a complicated Targaryen-affiliated past and the potential to turn on Cersei fits the bill.





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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162


...it will happen myself, I'm just arguing that I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.


    Quote:
    Assuming Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was annulled in the books, I wondered whether their children would be bastards. They were married after all. And weren't the children born before the annulment? So would they be bastards? Not sure how that works.


I can't imagine the show making a change this big without something being there in the books. And since that marriage was voided, it's like it never happened, so it doesn't matter when the children were born.


    Quote:
    At this point, the show and books are pretty distinct. It's possible the Golden Company and Aegon have an important story in the books. Doesn't mean that they will in the show. So when you say the show writers would try to include it because it's a pivotal part of the books, I guess I just disagree. Here's another way I look at it. If Martin had Elia's son Aegon winning the Iron Throne in the books, the show writers would have introduced him already. Martin's last book came out in 2011. They have had plenty of time.


Yeah, but my point earlier in the argument was that if Martin does nothing important with them till the very end, it would have been a waste of screen time to have introduced them earlier just to have one prior scene of them existing. Maybe if the GC were to win it all, the show could have at least alluded to the survival of the bastard. But playing a key role in the final events does not just mean them prevailing. More importantly, as I've tried to point since the beginning, there's still plenty of time for character development. It took most of my favorite characters of the show just a few scenes to attain that status, so with about 3-4 times the average length of a movie left in the show, they can absolutely have people invested in new characters. Heck, the entire theatrical trilogy of LOTR could fit in this season!


    Quote:
    It's possible that Martin will end Game of Thrones as setting up a sequel of sorts. In that instance, I get the sense that the character would be more important for that theoretical sequel, not so much the here and now. And with the way TV works, who knows it the TV show would touch on that.


They did not start this with the intention of making their own version of it. If Martin had all his books finished by now, most everything would be closer to his story. Since he must have given them rough guidelines about where he's going with it from the very start, they probably aimed to end it in a similar fashion. And were Martin setting up a sequel, after seeing early on they had a hit, HBO's guys would definitely want to leave their end open for it, trust me...


    Quote:
    I actually do consider it objectively bad to have the end of one's storyline significantly influenced by characters not previously featured. We go on journeys with these characters. Get personally invested in their struggles. So why should I want another character not before seen to be significant in the end? For characters to be significant in the climax of a story, I want to experience their journeys in a significant way. If not, then the end is cheapened.


I could say that treating all your characters as disposable and robbing your plot of major and interesting ones early on for shock value is bad writing as well, cheapening the entire story for a lot of people who were "personally invested in their struggles". But that, much like your points above, is subjective. And it's subjective because it's the execution that really matters. I'm not saying that including new, important characters will necessarily improve the story, but you're saying that it will make it worse no matter how it's done.


    Quote:
    And my objection to it isn't even really based on what I think is good or bad writing. Or right or wrong for the characters. I just don't think they will bring in Aegon because it would feel very weird for your average show watcher. Of all my friends/family that watch Game of Thrones, I know the most about it by far. Most of my friends/family just watch the show. Every once in a while they will read stuff online about what's going on. But that's pretty much it.

    When Lyanna was revealed to be Jon's mom, I had to remind them about Lyanna's backstory. And they didn't get who the father was. I was even asked if Ned was the Dad. When I said it was Rhaegar, I can't tell you how many times I have had to walk them through who Rhaegar was. They thought he was the Mad King, Dany's father. Remember when Ned said "The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground." That confused them. When I explained Rhaegar was her brother, they said "That psycho brother who had the melted gold poured over his head?"


That's exactly why, if you introduce them earlier and then forget about them till last season, you still end up confusing the average person on top of losing the chance to surprise attentive viewers. Right now they have the bonus of you and others like you having explained to your circles last season who Rhaegar was, so they can just introduce his first son now with minimum confusion. And really, we're in the last season, it's not like they'll be losing any viewers now...


    Quote:
    So introducing Aegon now? With a line like "Oh, he's Elia's son." You think that will fly with your average TV watcher?


It will. You know why? Because the average viewer's inability to remember all the little details comes from the simple fact that they just don't care enough. What seems detrimental to you is a non-issue to them. They may be confused for a bit, but they'll just shrug it off and continue watching. Again, and this is a major point against your view, Captain Marvel!


Drax the Legend, Captain of the Fist, The Starwalker, The Jade Slayer


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Drax the Legend


Member Since: Thu Nov 05, 2009
Posts: 13,162



    Quote:
    Nevermind the books. If Warner Bros. is smart, they will make a Game of Thrones movie (or a few movies) a few years from now that's a sequel to the series featuring the surviving characters. That's why they shouldn't kill off Jon, Arya, Sansa, and some supporting characters like Sam, Gilly, Davos, Missandei, etc. They should even keep Varys around. He could make a heel turn.


That's more or less the premise of the next thread I had planned! Now you'll say I stole the idea from you, which is a filthy lie, ya bastich \(pirate\) !


Drax the Legend, Captain of the Fist, The Starwalker, The Jade Slayer


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,613



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Nevermind the books. If Warner Bros. is smart, they will make a Game of Thrones movie (or a few movies) a few years from now that's a sequel to the series featuring the surviving characters. That's why they shouldn't kill off Jon, Arya, Sansa, and some supporting characters like Sam, Gilly, Davos, Missandei, etc. They should even keep Varys around. He could make a heel turn.



    Quote:
    That's more or less the premise of the next thread I had planned! Now you'll say I stole the idea from you, which is a filthy lie, ya bastich \(pirate\) !


They say great minds think alike, but given your mental faculties, I'll just chalk it up to coincidence!




THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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