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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,441


We all love Star Trek, but there are a ton of episodes of various series that just didn't work. And when you look at Memory Alpha or somewhere like that even the writers, actors, and others behind the scenes will admit "yeah we tried it, but it just didn't work"

What are some episodes you've seen lately that didn't work.

I'm in the middle of the 4th season of DS9 and it is a bit of a rough patch.

I started with "Bar Association" which was really good. Star Trek "union movie" that's better than most union movies. ;\)
    
"Accession"- Here is an episode that almost worked but REALLY didn't. Sisko doesn't want to be the Emissary and some Bajoran guy from 200 years ago comes out of the wormhole and thinks he is the Emissary so Sisko says "okay, you do you I'm outie 5,000." BUT it turns out the new Emissary immediately brings back the Bajoran CASTE system (that we have never heard of and thankfully never hear of again!) That throws everything into chaos. Bajor isn't going to be able to join the Federation, Kira is going to have to be an artist even though she can't sculpt to save her life. So Sisko goes in the wormhole and talks to the Prophets and finds out oh he is the Emissary after all....Is it just me that hates this episode? It makes Bajorans out to be the DUMBEST people. Blindly following the Emissary off the nearest cliff. Heck in one scene you find out the friendly priest threw a guy off a balcony and killed him because he was from an unclean caste.     

Rules of Engagement- Another episode that almost works but doesn't. I LOVED the Klingon lawyer in this episode. I think he might be my favorite Klingon ever! But as one of the writers of this episode said "It's a Worf episode where Worf is hardly in it." And the ending was the worst part for me. Worf gets off the hook for firing without confirming the target because it turns out to be an elaborate ploy to discredit him, so all Worf gets is tough talk from Sisko when really he deserves a demotion or a court martial.     

Hard Time- Miles has the memories of 20 years in prison downloaded into his brain and has to reconcile that with returning to his old life and it almost destroys him. I'd say this episode was brilliant but it is reduced to meaninglessness because IT IS NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN (sorry that is my main pet peeve with Star Trek that characters go through these life changing events but somehow don't actually change).     

Shattered Mirror- I love the mirror episodes. I always wish there were MORE of them.     

The Muse- I haven't watched this one yet it is next and I AM TERRIFIED! I know it is going to be bad, but I am afraid I can not prepare for how bad it will be!

PPP





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689





I don't think I had any major problems with any of those episodes. Like I think Accession was a story that sort of had to happen...there needed to be an episode where Ben's role as Emissary is put in doubt by a faithful Bajoran.

I think DS9 had some rough episodes in seasons 1 and 7 but by season 3 through the early half of season 6 I thought the episodes were usually pretty darn good.

My least favorite DS9 episodes

Move Along Home
Resurrection
Melora (I feel like Orville kind of borrowed some ideas from this episode a bit in a recent episode)
Profit and Lace
The Emperor's New Cloak
One Little Ship (Honey I Shrunk the Runabout)


I usually LOVE the Ferengi episodes while true Trek fans hate them. But I just did not like Profit and Lace one where Quark becomes a woman to prove that women are smart enough to do business. I also loved the first few Mirror universe episodes but I did not like Resurrection or Emperor's New Cloak episodes.

Move Along Home is that annoying episode where those annoying aliens play some murdery game or something. Melora was about how handicapable crippled people are or something and has this alien lady in Star Fleet with this really abrasive personality and an inability to walk in normal gravity.

I know a lot of people say they disliked Let He Who Is Without Sin or Time's Orphan but I don't remember disliking those episode. Or the Muse really.


The episodes I usually disliked were the one offs that didn't really showcase the supporting characters (non main cast) and dealt with a bunch of aliens never to be seen again. DS9 had such a great stable of supporting characters like Kai Winn, Dukat, Garak, the female changeling, Weyoun, Brunt, Gaila, Ishka, Zek, Eddington, Martok, Kasidy etc that if one of them was in an episode I was usually happy with the episode. Usually anything dealing with the Cardassians, the Dominion, the Ferengi, or the Klingons I was into it (but the Bajor centric episodes were kind of hit or miss). I also thought the Dax centric episodes while not awful...were still pretty weak. Her story just seemed like a lone discordant note on the show that never quite meshed with the other elements in the symphony. Everything else always seemed to fit together except Dax's stuff.







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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,441


Wow, you are a lot more forgiving than I am.

Like I said I just starting re-watching them again so I watched season 1-3 like I don't know maybe a year or two ago, but I remember quite a few stinkers.

I don't even remember some of these episode. I have no memory of a ship shrinking episode. Something to look forward too. \:\)

I love the series over all but there are some episodes I would cut out like Thomas Jefferson ripping pages out of the Bible. ;\)

I can go back and try to recall which ones, but it would be difficult to remember some of them. I tend to block these things out.

PPP





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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,441





    Quote:

    I don't think I had any major problems with any of those episodes. Like I think Accession was a story that sort of had to happen...there needed to be an episode where Ben's role as Emissary is put in doubt by a faithful Bajoran.


I agree it is a great premise for an episode I just think the execution of it made the Bajorans seem like lemmings.

PPP









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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



DS9 is my favorite science fiction show. So I grant I may be more lenient than other posters.

The runabout shrinking is in season 6.





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Jeff M


Member Since: Fri Jul 29, 2011
Posts: 215


I'll admit that "Profit and Lace" was stupid.

But y'know what? After watching what happened to those kids on "The Valiant," I needed me some stupid.

As an old Laugh In fan, Henry Gibson was a nice bonus as well.

Jeff
www.dogfoodforchairs.com


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    I'll admit that "Profit and Lace" was stupid.



    Quote:
    But y'know what? After watching what happened to those kids on "The Valiant," I needed me some stupid.



    Quote:
    As an old Laugh In fan, Henry Gibson was a nice bonus as well.


I usually love the Ferengi episodes but that one never clicked for me. I kinda cringe while watching it.






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christian


Member Since: Tue Aug 01, 2017
Posts: 23


I suppose I could analyze the various episodes I didn't like, but that would be time consuming. I can tell you what I generally didn't like about the various Star Trek shows. The re-curring time travel episodes in Enterprise pretty much ruined the show. The writers couldn't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that they were doing a prequel. Not that I didn't like the Xindi storyline, but add that to the Suliban and the Na'Kuhl, and the idea just seemed to dominate the show. Only in the fourth season did they finally get around to telling some exciting stories that had to do with the time period. But, by then it was too late, the show lost so much of its audience. And it's a shame, because I was at a Q & A with Jeffrey Combs, and he said Shran was supposed to be added to the cast, and join the crew. That would've been fantastic.

In spite of the love that most people had for Next Generation, I thought it was the worst of the series. The cast was weak, and there was WAY too much attention paid to the personal lives of the crew. So many episodes were melodramatic, almost soap opera fare. What didn't work for me the most was the presence of families aboard a military/exploration vessel. And a kid at helm. I also didn't buy the whole retcon of Klingons being all about honor, and having some kind of warrior code. They've nothing more than a race of galactic thugs.

DS9 worked much better. Outstanding stories, in general. Plenty of excitement, great acting, great supporting cast. Just great. A couple things didn't work quite well for me about the show. I thought Sisko's role as emissary was a little convoluted. But, most of all, I didn't buy for one minute the idiotic passing of the mantle of Grand Nagus to an imbecile like Rom. It was obvious that some exec at CBS decided the Ferengi worked better as comic relief, so they should be incorporated into the Federation down the rode. But, the preoccupation with wealth, and the outright sexism made that impossible. So, this ham-fisted attempt at re-writing the raison d'etre of the Ferengi. Any race with a fixation on Rules of Acquisition would assasinate Rom first change they got. It was utterly preposterous.

Voyager....Neelix and Kess didn't work for me. Mercifully they got rid of her. I suppose it could be said that Voyager eluded the Borg a little too easy. I liked the show. The cast was much better than Next Generation. The writing was much better. And the finale was head and shoulders better than TNG and DS9.

Going forward, anything based on Abrams' Star Trek will never work for me. I watched the first two episodes of Discovery, and hated it with a passion. I'll never watch again. And the return of Picard? he's too old. And the 'destruction of the Romulan Empire' is even more absurd than the conversion of the Ferengi. One planet does not an empire make, even if it is the homeworld. The Romulan Empire is composed of hundreds of worlds. No way does it get destroyed by on super nova. Civil war? Sure. The loss of the homeworld would trigger every warring faction in the empire. That could be interesting. But not this refugee business that Picard is said to be involved in. That's a non-starter for me.


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Superman's Pal

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Posts: 4,295


I'm not a fan of prequels either. Enterprise just seemed like a bad idea upon conception. You already had the problem that we have cell phones now that are as good as communicators in Kirk's time. How can you make technology that's more advanced than now but less advanced than TOS? Better to go further into the future. The story bible when I looked at it seemed promising, but the show went from the awe of discovery into TNG rehashed after a couple of episodes and remained that way for 2 seasons. Season 3's Xindi war was the highlight of the series. Season 4 was all fan service. How many references can we make? Let's explain the Klingon foreheads with Brent Spiner. Wait, let's not. Everything that was done for the first time on TOS let's say we actually did for the first time on Enterprise, like putting the Vulcan Jesus' karta into Archer. The episode with the Romulan chameleon ship was the only good episode of the season.

I guess I liked TNG more than you did. They had some great episodes. The business as usual the rest of the time was decent. I think having a focus on civilian lives and some soap opera was okay and gave it a variety from the action/adventure stuff. Picard, Data, Worf and Q were great. Crusher, Riker, Troi and La Forge were fine as supporting characters but when an episode focused on them it was usually less than stellar. I might have liked Pulaski better than Crusher. Ro might have been a decent addition if she hadn't been so one-note. Wesley didn't annoy me as much as he did most people, I guess, but I was fine with him leaving. They shouldn't have had kids aboard, even the characters question it.

DS9 was great. Good cast and very large supporting cast, most of it great. Bashir was a weak link for me. Sure, he had his moments but he was socially awkward and didn't do it as well as Data. Then they reveal he's a hidden super-genius and suddenly he's almost as absurd a character as Wesley Crusher. Not as annoying but a little too good at everything. Rom going from bloodthirsty to lovable scamp was jarring but I liked the second iteration better. Ezri was never great either but not terrible. I liked that the Dominion War became a thread to hang a lot of stories on but they still had latitude to tell a lot of episodic stuff within that.

Voyager was leftovers. The idea of two crews that hate each other that are forced to coexist on one ship could have been pretty good, but the premise is basically tossed after the pilot episode. This show is every bit as bad as TNG for having a luxury liner feel but it's even harder to swallow since the ship should be falling apart. When it got home in the final episode it should have fallen to pieces like the Bluesmobile. Kes should have had the most potential of any character on the show. For the writers to say they wrote her out because they couldn't come up with anything for her is really an admission that they just aren't good at their job. They also didn't know what to do with Neelix (or Kim, or Chakotay). The writers seemed to favor The Doctor and Seven, and you got the idea that they only featured Janeway because they had to. She's a good actor but they had her doing so many questionable things. The first 4 seasons were fairly solid, their biggest crime is just being TNG rehashed. I don't know what happened after that but last time I watched it seemed like when season 5 hit the show became much worse. Dumb gimmick episodes, overuse and defanging of the Borg, characters just acting dumb. The finale is so weak. More Borg. Excess time travel. And future Janeway goes back in time to save Seven so Chakotay can have a girlfriend, right? But doesn't go back further and save her entire crew?

When Discovery first aired I only saw the first free episode on CBS and it did not make me want to see more. It was pretty terrible. I'm finally watching season one now. The second episode was no better. It was a bad way to start the show. The third episode was actually much better and made me want to see more, and should have been the first episode. Everything that happened in the first two episodes was explained in dialogue in #3 anyway so we didn't need to see it. I'm 7 or 8 eps in now and it's very hit an miss. Not sure about this show.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689





    Quote:
    DS9 was great. Good cast and very large supporting cast, most of it great. Bashir was a weak link for me. Sure, he had his moments but he was socially awkward and didn't do it as well as Data. Then they reveal he's a hidden super-genius and suddenly he's almost as absurd a character as Wesley Crusher. Not as annoying but a little too good at everything. Rom going from bloodthirsty to lovable scamp was jarring but I liked the second iteration better. Ezri was never great either but not terrible. I liked that the Dominion War became a thread to hang a lot of stories on but they still had latitude to tell a lot of episodic stuff within that.


I hate to say it but finding out Bashir was genetically modified almost made him more bearable even though personality wise he became more obnoxious. The idea that he was such a perfect goody two shoes always seemed really annoying. Once we found out that he was genetically modified and had kept it secret I was like "so that's why he's so annoying". I appreciated Bashir once the secret was out...because by then we knew he had a dark secret and wasn't as perfect as he pretends to be.


    Quote:
    Voyager was leftovers. The idea of two crews that hate each other that are forced to coexist on one ship could have been pretty good, but the premise is basically tossed after the pilot episode. This show is every bit as bad as TNG for having a luxury liner feel but it's even harder to swallow since the ship should be falling apart. When it got home in the final episode it should have fallen to pieces like the Bluesmobile. Kes should have had the most potential of any character on the show. For the writers to say they wrote her out because they couldn't come up with anything for her is really an admission that they just aren't good at their job. They also didn't know what to do with Neelix (or Kim, or Chakotay). The writers seemed to favor The Doctor and Seven, and you got the idea that they only featured Janeway because they had to. She's a good actor but they had her doing so many questionable things. The first 4 seasons were fairly solid, their biggest crime is just being TNG rehashed. I don't know what happened after that but last time I watched it seemed like when season 5 hit the show became much worse. Dumb gimmick episodes, overuse and defanging of the Borg, characters just acting dumb. The finale is so weak. More Borg. Excess time travel. And future Janeway goes back in time to save Seven so Chakotay can have a girlfriend, right? But doesn't go back further and save her entire crew?


Voyager was awful. I can understand someone not liking TNG but to actually like Voyager more than TNG makes no sense to me. Voyager was lukewarm leftover TNG.









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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    Voyager....Neelix and Kess didn't work for me. Mercifully they got rid of her. I suppose it could be said that Voyager eluded the Borg a little too easy. I liked the show. The cast was much better than Next Generation. The writing was much better. And the finale was head and shoulders better than TNG and DS9.


That doesn't make sense to me at all. How anyone could like Voyager much less put it above TNG is beyond me. TNG had it's flaws but was still far superior to Voyager. Voyager was like TNG without any of the good parts.

Everything about Voyager sucked. The actors. The aliens. Janeway's crappy leadership. The Maquis. Anything hologram related. Leaning on TNG supporting characters (Q, Barclay). It was just a show with a really bad premise really. The fun thing about Trek is the aliens we know like the Klingons, the Romulans etc so they decide to do a show where all the cool aliens aren't there on that side of the galaxy.

Voyager was the worst show in the franchise and I will stand by that.

Enterprise had it's problems but there were times when the story could be interesting like seasons 3 and 4. Voyager was just one long marathon of crap. Every episode as dismal as the next. Enterprise could be up and down in quality but Voyager was just always a consistently awful show. I think the only character I could ever stomach on Voyager was Kes and she got written out early on.





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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,441







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christian


Member Since: Tue Aug 01, 2017
Posts: 23



    Quote:
    The episode with the Romulan chameleon ship was the only good episode of the season.


You mean you didn't like the mirror universe story? I thought they did a pretty good job with that. And the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan government was good too. In fact, there should have been a lot more of that story. The Romulans would always have been aware of Vulcan, having originated there. But, the Vulcans would not be aware of the Romulans being their own people. That could have been interesting. I didn't mind the augments, and the tie in to Klingon engineering as an explanation for how the Klingons looked in the original series. Missing from the entire series is more from the Rigellians. They were the first species to join the Federation after the original founders. Most of the time they're MIA.


    Quote:
    I guess I liked TNG more than you did. They had some great episodes. The business as usual the rest of the time was decent. I think having a focus on civilian lives and some soap opera was okay and gave it a variety from the action/adventure stuff. Picard, Data, Worf and Q were great. Crusher, Riker, Troi and La Forge were fine as supporting characters but when an episode focused on them it was usually less than stellar. I might have liked Pulaski better than Crusher. Ro might have been a decent addition if she hadn't been so one-note. Wesley didn't annoy me as much as he did most people, I guess, but I was fine with him leaving. They shouldn't have had kids aboard, even the characters question it.


It comes down to personal taste, with regards to the melodrama. I always disliked the way the original series focused on Kirk's romantic interests. I thought it distracted from the science fiction and social commentary vis-a-vis alien races. So, when they doubled down on the crew's personal lives in TNG, I found it infuriating. Maybe it would have been better if TNG had better characters. But, outside of Worf and Picard (and Ryker a little bit), I didn't really find the characters compelling. I hated the Crushers, Troi and LaForge. And Data, while tolerable, was just a re-hash of Spock. The twist being a being in search of more humanity, instead of less. They just reversed Spock, and made Data. If you don't like cheap gimmicks, then I can't see how you like Data. You're right about Polaski and Ro. They were both exellent. Too bad they weren't regulars (although Ro was offered the lead in DS9, and she refused).


    Quote:
    Bashir was a weak link for me. Sure, he had his moments but he was socially awkward and didn't do it as well as Data.


I liked Bashir, but didn't love his character. The writing for him was awkward at first, just as you say. He was better when they made him the show's moral conscious. They didn't really need to introduce the genetic engineering angle.


    Quote:
    Voyager was leftovers. The idea of two crews that hate each other that are forced to coexist on one ship could have been pretty good, but the premise is basically tossed after the pilot episode. This show is every bit as bad as TNG for having a luxury liner feel but it's even harder to swallow since the ship should be falling apart. When it got home in the final episode it should have fallen to pieces like the Bluesmobile. Kes should have had the most potential of any character on the show. For the writers to say they wrote her out because they couldn't come up with anything for her is really an admission that they just aren't good at their job. They also didn't know what to do with Neelix (or Kim, or Chakotay). The writers seemed to favor The Doctor and Seven, and you got the idea that they only featured Janeway because they had to. She's a good actor but they had her doing so many questionable things. The first 4 seasons were fairly solid, their biggest crime is just being TNG rehashed. I don't know what happened after that but last time I watched it seemed like when season 5 hit the show became much worse. Dumb gimmick episodes, overuse and defanging of the Borg, characters just acting dumb. The finale is so weak. More Borg. Excess time travel. And future Janeway goes back in time to save Seven so Chakotay can have a girlfriend, right? But doesn't go back further and save her entire crew?


The one major complaint about Voyager that I tend to agree with, is the Starfleet-Maquis angle not played out more. If they had, that would have made Chakotay more interesting (although I still liked him). He was a better actor than Ryker, but paled compared to Kira. With the Maquis angle, it would have moved his performance closer to that of Kira, and would have made him shine more. I don't mind that they focused on the Doctor and Seven. They were the best two characters. You could argue that they are rehashes of Data, but since Data is a rehash of Spock, then I don't see a problem. Plus, Spiner was a noticeably weaker actor than Picardo and Ryan. I thought the show took off after Seven joined. The first three seasons were weak, the last four were great. And the finale? I stand by it being better than TNG (which was soooo boring), and DS9 (which gave the appearance of the writers running out of time and having to cram way too much into the finale). Voyager used the Borg in the finale, because they were a fan favorite, and the Borg always had the technology for Voyager to return to the Alpha Quadrant. Janeway didn't time travel just so 'Chakotay could have a girlfriend.' She did it because she loved Seven like an adopted daughter. She also did it because her dear friend Tuvok was reduced to an invalid ( I found that scene particularly touching - but you have to like the characters to feel that way). She couldn't have time traveled to the beginning of her journey to save the entire crew, because they only encountered the Borg half way through, and let's face it, Janeway did it to save her 'daughter.' Maybe that motive is flawed, or maybe it's more human. That's debatable. But, it made for a great finale, better than all the rest.


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christian


Member Since: Tue Aug 01, 2017
Posts: 23



    Quote:
    That doesn't make sense to me at all. How anyone could like Voyager much less put it above TNG is beyond me. TNG had it's flaws but was still far superior to Voyager. Voyager was like TNG without any of the good parts.

    Everything about Voyager sucked. The actors. The aliens. Janeway's crappy leadership. The Maquis. Anything hologram related. Leaning on TNG supporting characters (Q, Barclay). It was just a show with a really bad premise really. The fun thing about Trek is the aliens we know like the Klingons, the Romulans etc so they decide to do a show where all the cool aliens aren't there on that side of the galaxy.


Ah, the aliens we know. Well, truthfully, Reverend, I felt exactly the way you did when they first announced Voyager. I was incensed that my beloved Romulans and Cardassians wouldn't be in the new series (I don't mind the Klingons or the Ferengi, but I never loved them). So, I initially boycotted the show (although I watched the premiere). It was when they introduced the Borg that I couldn't help but take a peek. I really like Scorpion, and it got me to watch a little more. Then a little more. Eventually, I came to realize I liked the show in spite of the absence of favorite aliens. And they did introduce some great new ones(Voth, 8472, Hirogen, Vaadwaur). But, I think you never overcame your snit over the decision to focus on a ship lost in the Delta Quadrant. Some complaints are subjective. You thought TNG had a better cast, I thought it was Voyager(and I thought the directing was better on Voyager). The stories in both shows were largely the same(something that occurs on every single Star Trek show). Voyager benefited from better visual effects, over TNG pixel style, that was still fairly primitive compared to DS9 and V. And the atmosphere of the Voyager series was much better. TNG had an atmosphere of political correctness run amok. It just seemed so artificial to me. The poor acting of most of the characters didn't help. And maybe that's what it comes down to: I liked 3 main characters on TNG. On Voyager, I only disliked 2 characters. Perhaps that's what ultimately explains the difference in our two opinions.


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Superman's Pal

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Some points in your original post for some reason I forgot to respond to: I was just going to say I agreed that Shran would have been a great regular addition to Enterprise, he was probably my favorite character on that show.

I agree that Klingon honor was a TNG concept, or maybe just a Worf concept. The TOS Klingons were thugs. The ones in TNG like Duras and Gowron were both willing to do dishonorable things in order to win which seems a Romulan trait.

I also agree that the Ferengi changed to much by the end, it was forced. They always said the Ferengi represented 20th Century humams as opposed to 24th century Starfleet. But they can't be modernized in just a couple of years.

And the destruction of Romulus shouldn't destroy the Empire. It's like the Klingon Empire dying because it lost one fuel source makes no sense in The Undiscovered Country.


    Quote:
    You mean you didn't like the mirror universe story? I thought they did a pretty good job with that. And the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan government was good too. In fact, there should have been a lot more of that story. The Romulans would always have been aware of Vulcan, having originated there. But, the Vulcans would not be aware of the Romulans being their own people. That could have been interesting. I didn't mind the augments, and the tie in to Klingon engineering as an explanation for how the Klingons looked in the original series. Missing from the entire series is more from the Rigellians. They were the first species to join the Federation after the original founders. Most of the time they're MIA.

It was maybe the cheesiest Mirror Universe story yet, but it's always sort of nice to see the old TOS sets dragged out again. But once again it seemed very fan-servicey. Not just a mirror story but also time travel, TOS callback to the Tholians, etc. It's a fine line. Trials and Tribble-ations was a fun little comedy episode. Dumb but fun. On ENT it felt every bit as silly but as if they wanted it to be serious. Maybe it would have worked better with more jokes. Ironically I just finished the mirror episodes of Discovery and liked them better even though they also took it seriously. Maybe because they didn't lift as much from the original episode?


    Quote:
    And Data, while tolerable, was just a re-hash of Spock. The twist being a being in search of more humanity, instead of less. They just reversed Spock, and made Data. If you don't like cheap gimmicks, then I can't see how you like Data.

I guess I thought that was the genius of Data, that instead of copying Spock they reversed him. A logical man searching for emotion. Sure it's a gimmick just like Spock. But they got a lot of mileage out of putting Data in different situations. I felt the character was well fleshed out and grew more than any other on the show. There was really no equivalent on DS9 which was a good thing. When they put another Vulcan on Voyager I thought why bother? We've seen that. Only this time a full Vulcan instead of half, so less internal conflict. Tim Russ did fine with what they gave him but he usually wasn't that interesting. And to make it worse they had the Doctor who like you said, is kind of a Data retread. He had more personality which gave him a much shorter journey to humanity. And then we get Enterprise which gives another Vulcan! Enough with the Vulcans already. Should've had Shran from the beginning. Again, no offense to T'Pol, she was one of the better characters. I just wish they stop treading the same well-worn ground. DS9 only benefited from its differences.


    Quote:
    The one major complaint about Voyager that I tend to agree with, is the Starfleet-Maquis angle not played out more. If they had, that would have made Chakotay more interesting (although I still liked him). He was a better actor than Ryker, but paled compared to Kira. With the Maquis angle, it would have moved his performance closer to that of Kira, and would have made him shine more. I don't mind that they focused on the Doctor and Seven. They were the best two characters. You could argue that they are rehashes of Data, but since Data is a rehash of Spock, then I don't see a problem. Plus, Spiner was a noticeably weaker actor than Picardo and Ryan. I thought the show took off after Seven joined. The first three seasons were weak, the last four were great. And the finale? I stand by it being better than TNG (which was soooo boring), and DS9 (which gave the appearance of the writers running out of time and having to cram way too much into the finale). Voyager used the Borg in the finale, because they were a fan favorite, and the Borg always had the technology for Voyager to return to the Alpha Quadrant. Janeway didn't time travel just so 'Chakotay could have a girlfriend.' She did it because she loved Seven like an adopted daughter. She also did it because her dear friend Tuvok was reduced to an invalid ( I found that scene particularly touching - but you have to like the characters to feel that way). She couldn't have time traveled to the beginning of her journey to save the entire crew, because they only encountered the Borg half way through, and let's face it, Janeway did it to save her 'daughter.' Maybe that motive is flawed, or maybe it's more human. That's debatable. But, it made for a great finale, better than all the rest.

I would agree that Beltran is probably a better actor than Frakes, but they gave him far less to do. I find Spiner is his many roles to be versatile, he can create a lot of very different characters like Bob Wheeler on Night Court, but most of them are quite cheesy like that. Data I find to be a really solid, believable character because of his earnestness. Picardo also did well with the Doctor. In a lot of his non-Trek roles like Innerspace or Stargate he can also be very cheesy. I don't know that I could say Spiner or Picardo are better than the other, Trek is the high point for both.

My problem with the Voyager finale is that time travel can open too big a can of worms when you use it for personal reasons. It's better used by accident. Even using it purposefully like in Star Trek IV they are just trying to save the present, not change history. Certainly not their personal history. Seriously, if it's that easy to time travel why didn't Kirk go back and save David? It becomes something that elimates any sort of dramatic consequenes. If future Janeway can travel back to correct an event in her own life, why not prevent Voyager from being taken by the Caretaker in the first place? Why not save Kes who was also like a daughter to her? Why not go back one more week than she did and save poor Joe Kelly who after 7 years died in the second-to-last episode? If you start picking and choosing who lives and dies it kind of deflates the dramatic tension.

Add to that Voyager never did anything interesting with the Borg. Well, Seven was good and Scorpion was okay because they brought back the collective instead of the queen. The Queen made no sense really. If it had just been Scorpion and Seven it would have been fine. But with Dark Frontier and Unimatrix Zero the Borg kept getting more pointless and easier to defeat each time. And Seven's parents apparently were studying the Borg even before "Q Who?" It made no sense. So making the Borg the final villain was kind of sad. Why not the Hirogen, Vidiians, even the Kazon to bring it full circle? Just say they all formed an anti-Voyager alliance. Something.


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christian


Member Since: Tue Aug 01, 2017
Posts: 23



    Quote:
    My problem with the Voyager finale is that time travel can open too big a can of worms when you use it for personal reasons. It's better used by accident. Even using it purposefully like in Star Trek IV they are just trying to save the present, not change history. Certainly not their personal history. Seriously, if it's that easy to time travel why didn't Kirk go back and save David? It becomes something that elimates any sort of dramatic consequenes. If future Janeway can travel back to correct an event in her own life, why not prevent Voyager from being taken by the Caretaker in the first place? Why not save Kes who was also like a daughter to her? Why not go back one more week than she did and save poor Joe Kelly who after 7 years died in the second-to-last episode? If you start picking and choosing who lives and dies it kind of deflates the dramatic tension.


There's no question that time travel opens a can of worms. And since Harry Kim was chasing after Janeway to prevent her from doing it, no one at Starfleet would have approved of what Janeway was doing. But, that's what made it a good episode. She was going to save Seven and Tuvok, and to Hell with the consequences. Now, I understand if that rubs some people the wrong way, but to me, it humanized Janeway. Kirk would've done it(in fact, since he broke Starfleet rules, and went to rescue Spock in the Search For Spock, it's a cinch Kirk would've done exactly what Janeway did). I don't think it deflates the dramatic tension when Janeway decides to rescue those she loves most. It makes it more dramatic, and more of an emotional impact.


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    And Seven's parents apparently were studying the Borg even before "Q Who?" It made no sense.


Agreed. That made no sense at all. But, then, wasn't TNG a little convoluted about the Borg? In the first season episode, The Neutral Zone, wasn't it implied that the Borg were responsible for the disappearance of Romulan and Federation bases? That was the impression I got. And with trans-warp technology, the Borg could have been operating in the Alpha Quadrant for some time. It's more than a little confusing.


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Superman's Pal

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,295



    Quote:
    There's no question that time travel opens a can of worms. And since Harry Kim was chasing after Janeway to prevent her from doing it, no one at Starfleet would have approved of what Janeway was doing. But, that's what made it a good episode. She was going to save Seven and Tuvok, and to Hell with the consequences. Now, I understand if that rubs some people the wrong way, but to me, it humanized Janeway. Kirk would've done it(in fact, since he broke Starfleet rules, and went to rescue Spock in the Search For Spock, it's a cinch Kirk would've done exactly what Janeway did). I don't think it deflates the dramatic tension when Janeway decides to rescue those she loves most. It makes it more dramatic, and more of an emotional impact.

Kirk risked his career for a friend. But he did not use time travel to save a friend. He didn't time travel to save Spock, nor did he do it to save David. And it must have been pretty easy to do because when he needed to save the whales, he just said "start your computations for time warp" like it was that easy. I suppose the in-story reason is what Kirk says in Star Trek V, "I need my pain, don't take it away from me." And he let Edith Keeler die.

Like I said, just from a writing perspective, if every time a character suffers a loss they can just use time travel to go back and undo it, then they will never suffer any loss. That's the can of worms. So it's something a writer should never employ for that reason. It has nothing to do with what the character of Janeway would or wouldn't do. Like I said, she is the captain of a ship, she may love Seven like a daughter but she should and probably would trade her career for anyone that serves under her. So if she can just use time travel that easily, why not prevent Voyager from getting scooped up by the Caretaker in the first place? Or go back to the first time they encountered the Borg and use the Borg network to go home, instead of 3 years later? How many more lives would be saved then? But then, how many more lives would be lost, like the Borg children who never get freed from the collective? That's the problem, there is no time that wouldn't save lives and also ruin lives, so it doesn't make sense. But I guess Janeway frequently made choices that didn't make sense so maybe in that way it was the perfect finale for Voyager.


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