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Iron Man Unit 007

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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https://www.cbr.com/doctor-who-why-david-tennant-left/


We so need Tennant back, either Doc 13 returns to the form and persona of Doc 10, or takes on the form of 10 with with a new personality, or else Tennant becomes a new version of The Master.


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Zarius


Member Since: Sun Sep 03, 2017


The one thing that dismays me are how obsessed Doctor Who fans are with recycling the past, rather than look forward. I didn't like all of series 11, but I appreciated that it didn't rely on nostalgia.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


we just want to have the best Dr version s back now, either david or matt!


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Ancient One 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,541



    Quote:
    we just want to have the best Dr version s back now, either david or matt!


You mean the one currently considered the most popular.

But imagine if they'd had that attitude back in 2005.

'Colin, Sylvester and Paul failed. To bring back the show successfully we MUST bring back Tom Baker'.

You'd have denied yourself Chris, David, Matt and so on.

And if all you can think to do today is bring back Tennant, well, you may be denying yourself someone *even better* than Tennant in the role.


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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I think with Davis going it just made the choice clearer to let things go all at once and move on to different things.

Thing is, even if you had a Tennant willing to come back on, no reason to really other than specials, it would not be enough. You would need good stories and decent writing.

It would make the Doctor more enjoyable to watch but the stories would still not be good.

Which is how I sort of felt about the Smith era. Great Doctor but some of the stories were a bit too complicated and were focused onto things that made little sense to me. Or were just trying to be too meta for me. Or focusing too much on the companion at the expense of the Doctor, although that got worse after 11.




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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I think that is a fair point. There have been many good Doctors and many of the polls of popularity do have recency bias in them. Although I think it is hard to argue that usually it was 10 and 4 in some order after the modern series got going.

I think for me it is not that there cannot be good Doctors because there no doubt can be. I am sure some great ones are out there. The writing has to improve and the show runner has to worry more about quality of the product or it is putting lipstick on a pig.

I also think in some ways the show has suffered a big since 10 and 11 because Tennant and Smith were both really good at quriky, high energy but can change emotional states on a dime. So you bought the child like innocents and sudden shift into angry old demi-god situation. Eccelsten was good at this too, but it was more pronounced later.

I feel a new Doctor would almost be better served to find their own voice and not try to mimic a popular Doctor. I though Capaldi was not as good at that and Jodi Witticker is really just playing a poor reflection of 10 and 11.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


At this point would much prefer to see Capt jack aventures, or even Clara return!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Maybe, but tennet seemed to be really "the Dr"


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


They should have broken the mold on the new Dr, and gone either for a minority Male, or else a teenager Dr!


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Maybe, but tennet seemed to be really "the Dr"


Yeah. But that's because you've been kinda cheated with Nu-Who.

You had five years of things jogging along pretty well under RTD. Then you had Moffat, who started strong but quickly lost his way, and you've ended up with the horror of the Chibnall era.

Fans who've been watching since the sixties... we understand what can happen when the show's run correctly.

Bill Hartnell was the Doctor. The one and only. Then along came Troughton, who became popular very quickly. He was succeeded by Pertwee, and he became the new gold standard. The show was more popular than it had ever been. No one could imagine anyone topping that. But Tom Baker strolled in and became the most iconic Doctor ever (Yes, even over and above Tennant). Peter Davison continued the success story.

Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy - like Capaldi - never really had a chance to shine.

But I guarantee you, if Capaldi had been given the same level of material Tennant had, he'd be the one you'd want back today.

Classic series fans have debates about who was the best Doctor, and out of seven actors they have five very strong contenders.

New series fans can't have that debate. Out of five actors, there's really only one candidate. And that's not the actors' fault, it's the showrunners'.



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PPTSS


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    Fans who've been watching since the sixties... we understand what can happen when the show's run correctly.



    Quote:
    Bill Hartnell was the Doctor. The one and only. Then along came Troughton, who became popular very quickly. He was succeeded by Pertwee, and he became the new gold standard. The show was more popular than it had ever been. No one could imagine anyone topping that. But Tom Baker strolled in and became the most iconic Doctor ever (Yes, even over and above Tennant). Peter Davison continued the success story.



    Quote:
    Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy - like Capaldi - never really had a chance to shine.



    Quote:
    But I guarantee you, if Capaldi had been given the same level of material Tennant had, he'd be the one you'd want back today.



    Quote:
    Classic series fans have debates about who was the best Doctor, and out of seven actors they have five very strong contenders.



    Quote:
    New series fans can't have that debate. Out of five actors, there's really only one candidate. And that's not the actors' fault, it's the showrunners'.


I jumped onboard toward the end of the Smith era because the TV just happened to be on and tuned into BBC America when his last episode was on back when it originally aired. It got me and the missus binging from the beginning of the reboot and we have watched ever since. Both of us are in agreement that the current state of the show is—simply put—bad.

Over the years I have gone back to watch various serials from the classic series in order to get a better understanding of the history of the show and the character. It's easy to understand why Tom Baker tops so many lists as THE Doctor, however all those lists are pretty subjective. I enjoy watching Troughton, Pertwee, and Davison just as much as Baker, Tennant, and Capaldi. Every Doctor has had some great shining moments and some total stinkers save for Whittaker whose shining moments are extremely few and dim at best. Her fault? Not totally. I believe her casting was in part cronyism spurred by an agenda the BBC and Chibnall believe they need to push on to their audience. It appears they would rather serve the agenda than the audience which expects a higher level of quality from a show like Doctor Who.

So it really comes down to the foundations of the show: the network, the showrunner, and the writing. We can put the absolute best actor possible in the role regardless of gender, age, race, sexual orientation, etc., but if the premise and material given to that actor are lacking, then there's only so much they can do with it. What was once a gem becomes a polished turd.

I would love to see a retro series based on Doc 8 in order to flesh him out, but I also wonder what good it would serve the show and its history overall to do that. At this point in time, I believe Chibnall and the BBC have worked themselves into a real pickle by sacrificing the integrity of the show's history and, in turn, the fanbase that has invested so much because of that history. Unless the Beeb 1) relents on pushing their agenda rather than simply telling good stories and 2) hires a showrunner that wants to do the same instead of being their lackey, I'm afraid the future of the show is rather dire.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I remember watching as a kid on local Pbs in Detroit the Dr on tv, saw the one with the 3, or was it 5, Dr meeting against the Master? Then no Dr Who until 9th one, but tennatt was the one watched all of the time!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


They seem to have 3 legit choices here:
one would be to admit was a mistake , and then do a Bobby Dallas was all a dream show

second would be to admit mistake, and haved hopefully matt or david agree to return to now try to right the ship

Finally, keep as is, but go to also Movides, and there establish the real Dr as either matt or david again!


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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I never want to see Clara return. Captain Jack, yes. I like Captain Jack quite a bit. I would never have minded him having a spin off. Although surprising I was only luke warm on Torchwood. It was alright, but not quite the same feel.

Inevitable I guess, but you know.




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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I am not sure they should have gone any specific direction just to go that way really. I did not have a huge problem with a female Doctor as such but I did not like how they got there.

I think I said it before but my preference was a female Time Lord takes up the mantle in honor of the Doctor after the real Doctor vanishes. How he goes is up to the writers, but presumably another reality where he either loses the TARDIS (the newer Doctor would use it) or just ends up there and stuck.

So you have a few seasons of a female Doctor running around trying to fill the big shoes but without the experience. So, you get a potentially interesting story on several fronts all while not changing too much at once.

Then if that goes well you may consider it, but naw.

I also think that casting is really critical. You need good stories and good actors. The race, gender or age do not matter as much as that.

I actually think Jodi Whittiker is a decent actor, this is just not the role she is best at in the end. And the writing does not favors for her either. They are pretty much throwing stuff in your face to cause change just for changes sake. And then tieing themselves in knots trying to make sense of it as they go.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Liked the chemistry between him and the companion of the Dr that stayed behind!


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Daveym

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    Which is how I sort of felt about the Smith era. Great Doctor but some of the stories were a bit too complicated and were focused onto things that made little sense to me. Or were just trying to be too meta for me. Or focusing too much on the companion at the expense of the Doctor, although that got worse after 11.


That's an interesting point, as there was a crossroads reached in that run (probobly series 6) where I too was having trouble following the narrative and making sense of Moffatt's increasingly dense and fractured plotting - 'The Wedding of River Song' left me thinking that if even a sci-fi/fantasy fan like me was being left in the dark by it then the general public...?!!! Surely they couldn't make any sense of it.
But the reality was the ratings were still very strong, hence I accepted that it WAS me, the public were fine with it.

In hindsight it is clear that Moffatt was directly altering the series to match the output and narrative styles of American streaming television. The dense intricate season-long narratives of Breaking Bad and Dexter are two examples, 'Lost' would have been another, and while it was hard going at the time what Moffatt does leave behind as a legacy is a run that stands up to rewatching because of this approach. Even Peter Capaldi's era will be reassessed and enjoyed in a new light when looked back on and binged.

With Chris Chibnall and Jodie Whittaker's reign on the other hand, I am not as confident. Too shallow, too lacking in actor and characters chemistry to ever really engage the viewer of the future...





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


She is just not projecting to me the tech smarts, the leadership, and gravity of prior Drs!


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Iron Man Unit 007

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,543


I too would love a Doc 8 series.

As to the current dilemma, I have posted ways they can soft boot and erase the Whitaker era and have the real Doc 13 emerge from regeneration. \

Doc 12 becoming a woman was due to sabotage, either by the Master, Rassilon or the Dark Guardian are a combo of the 3. reason: Master wants to make the Doctor miserable and torment him, Rassilon and the Dark Guardian want the Doctor dead. Yet they know the Doc's skill and cleverness will be a problem if they directly attack and Doc 12 showed he has the support of Gallifrey.

So mess with the Doc's head by sabotaging regeneration, and then this whole mess of a story about Doc's alleged origins is revealed as a massive plan to kill him.

Doc 13/Whitaker thwarts it but in the process of thwarting it has to basically commit "time suicide" by going back to Doc 12's regeneration and fixing the sabotage. Thus she is erased and Doc 12 regenerates into the real Doc 13, a white british male.


OR

Doc 12 awakes on the floor of the TARDIS after it jolted him back to life and he goes thru his various personalities as he awakes(use stock footage from the episode) then insert new footage of Capaldi saying "Wow that was an incredible fever dream!" thus we dismiss the story of Doc 12 meeting Doc 1 as well as the Whitaker era. It was all a dream....which was a weak way to reset the show Dallas with Bobby Ewing I admit....


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Iron Man Unit 007

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,543




1. Too much time has passed for the classic actors. I would LOVE for Tom Baker to return but I doubt the BBC has the budget or desire to CGI de-age him.

2. Eccleston does not want to come back.

3. Tennant was very popular and had great stories.

Also his portrayal of Killgrave on Jessica Jones tells me that if they cast him as a more sinister version of the Doctor or even as THE MASTER that it would be a hit.

They've established that revisiting old favorite faces is possible when Doc 11 meets the Curator, and Doc Ten did abort a regeneration process to heal himself from a Dalek blast but remain as himself. So regenerating back into the appearance of Doc 10 but with an altered personality would be interesting

With the right directors, producers, writers.....


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Jeff m.


Member Since: Mon Jan 13, 2020


"With the right directors, producers, writers....."

That's the big key.

You could probably pull off a good season with a monkey as the Doctor (it would have to be a monkey from Great Britain of course) with that combination.


Jeff


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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Maybe, but some of those shows are not looked back that fondly on like Dexter or Lost. Breaking Bad is I guess, but I get the point.

There is not an issue with an overarcing meta plot. And that is not really that unusual for a story but it can vary on how much they beat you over the head with it.

For instance, the finally for the Missing Earth in the 10th Doctor's run was pretty much built on throughout the series. Various references to historically missing planets, moons etc. We just did not get the payoff to it until the end.

I feel with Moffat the issue, at its worse, that it was not possible to really enjoy episodes unless the series as a whole was taken into account.

It is a personal preference thing, but having gone back and rewatched them a few times, they are still hard to follow. Perhaps easier than they were coming out one at a time but still not easy.

My wife is a fan of the show as well, but is not as into such things as I (being the bigger fan of details), but she was lost initially and still was confused on rewatch. I think she was able to gather more why I have mixed feelings on Amy though.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


ALL that they need to do would be to bring back thre david tennet clone, the full human one!


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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Yeah, I don't think you would need Tennant if you had a good combination of folks behind the scenes.

You would still need the right person to be the Doctor but it would not be as much of a mess if they were just ok.

The sad part is there are alot of actors out there that I think could play the Doctor well or at least fine. Some potentially great. I just do not see them doing it or being asked in the first place.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


One good choice to me was the actor who played the Governor on Walking Dead, and was like a fake time Lord in the Dr!


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