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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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When he meet that "Superman:, was it just a what if homage to man of Steel, or does he really still exist in the Dr Universe, and could they ever meet again?


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Daveym

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I don't know whether the stones that gave The Ghost his power recovered, weren't they left lifeless at the end of the special....?

I don't like the idea of actual Superheroes active in the Doctor Who universe, but this was a one-off special and despite my misgivings I ended up rather liking it. It does suffer from some of the trends that were coming in at that time from the BBCs fixation with gender politics, but as a concept and design The Ghost and his debt to superhero comicbooks was well handled I thought. \(yes\)



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,276


From what I remember, The Ghost did still keep his superpowers at the end, as he was going to look like marry his lois and become a dad!

Just thought that he was a good parody of Superman, and would like him to be revisited in the future!


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Just thought that he was a good parody of Superman, and would like him to be revisited in the future!


I'm quite happy to leave that as a one-off story and never revisit it.

This is the Whoniverse, not the DCU. The rules are different, and you tell different kinds of stories. Superman works very well in the DCU, but would be a washout in the Whoniverse because the threats are different. Daleks and Cybermen would be no match for Superman, but conversely Superman wouldn't stand a chance against a Daemon or Sutekh. So the kinds of stories you can tell with a Superman-like character in the Whoniverse are extremely limited.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,276


I would not want gim as the Companion, but would be interest to have her check in on him, and end up changing dirty diapers as Aunty dr!


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    I would not want gim as the Companion, but would be interest to have her check in on him, and end up changing dirty diapers as Aunty dr!


We'll be getting that in the new CW Superman show.


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Daveym

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The Christmas Specials under Steven Moffatt were always set off to one side, with ideas and events based on fantasy they tended to be deliberately different to what you would see in a normal season of Doctor Who, and that is how they should be viewed and enjoyed to my mind.
As Ancient One said below there is no way a character like The Ghost could operate on earth in the Doctor Who universe without destroying the very need for Doctor Who!! He simply could not exist.
But the Christmas Specials are one-off's, you can do a character like The Ghost, You can have the Doctor meet Santa Claus, You can have the Doctor meet flying Sharks and living tree-men in a Winter wonderland...

The thought though that The Ghost even existed there in that episode opens up the question as to whether his existence means other superhumans existed on that world. Did, or does, earth have an 'Aquaman' perhaps? A man with links to The Sea Devils (remember them?!) would be a neat use of old continuity, is there perhaps an Osirian god out there waiting to fill the role of a Wonder Woman or Thor? Is there a Bowman inspired by Robin Hood perhaps?





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Could there actually be an Earth out in the DR Universe that would be pretty much either DC/Marvel earth?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,276


Would be interesting to see how the current Dr viewed babies, can she have one with a human now?


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Daveym

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I think what we are talking about is a question of genres. A character like The Ghost is a full-on Superhero in the Superman mold, a comicbook character. But because comicbooks have now annexed film and television the genre has evolved, Superheroes like Wonder Woman, Superman, Captain America, and Stargirl are now closer to fantasy characters thanks to their shift into live-action television and film. And so really are only one step away from Doctor Who as Doctor Who itself is more often than not a fantasy character operating in a fantasy world.
In the original series (1963-89) things were more grounded, the series had internal rules and very defined limits on what genre and content is could and would show. In Doctor Who magic did not exist, Superheroes did not exist, and while from the very start the series played with different story genres and styles (Westerns, Historicals, farce, gritty Quatermass, Satire, Spy thriller, etc.) it did somehow always stay to the same level and honoured its own established rules.

The modern series by Steven moffat's time was much more whimsical, a fairytale world is quite often used to describe the approach Moffatt used for Matt Smith's time on the show, and with the advance in effects and the rise of the Superhero genre to Film and Television it did make a sort of sense for Moffatt to use the new cultural popularity of the Superhero and try to put a Doctor Who spin on it. And as a one-off story, a Christmas special, I felt it worked quite well personally. It surprised me. But as Ancient One outlined down below the Superhero genre just isn't compatible with Doctor Who outside of a throwaway episode like this anymore than Star Trek's universe is... if Star Trek were to do a Superhero episode as with The Ghost, it would, as with Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes, be entirely within the context of a Holodeck exercise I would say.




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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Would be interesting to see how the current Dr viewed babies, can she have one with a human now?


It depends on your view of canon, to a point.

There was a script written by Marc Platt which might have made it into Season 27, had that season been made, but eventually saw publication as a novel in Virgin Books' 'New Adventures' range.

'Lungbarrow' sees the seventh Doctor and Ace visit Gallifrey and learn something of the Doctor's past. During the story it's revealed that Time Lords aren't born in the traditional way, but rather 'created' in looms, as Gallifreyans are racially infertile.

So if you want to go with that, then no, she can't.

Even if you don't, there's only scant evidence that Gallifreyans can mate with humans.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,276


I could see though the Dr becoming involved with the likes of someone like a Brainaic/Darkseid trying to impose their wills upon Him and the Earth in some way!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Well. would be one way to get my man Elvis into the show, as her way to have a child!


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Well. would be one way to get my man Elvis into the show, as her way to have a child!


She's wwwayyyyyy too old for Elvis. The Doctor hasn't been 14 for a very, very long time.


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Daveym

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Yes, absolutely, the problem with a Superhero though is that they make the Doctor largely redundant in his own world. Every hero needs a threat, a foe, a challenge to overcome. Whether that threat takes the form of a crime boss, an alien with a ray gun, an evil scientist, or something supernatural, is down to the writer and the genre it might fit in.

If I were to point out Johah Hex for an example - a western bounty hunter who's original premise and environment was the Wild West and how he made his living in it from day to say. Anyone with an interest in the Western genre would recognise Hex's world, it is familiar and knowable.
Does this character belong in a dystopian science fiction future? Would his being recast as a 'Mad Max' pastiche be true to his character, his origins...? No. Not to my mind.
Does Hex, a Cowboy made in the Clint Eastwood mold, belong in the 20/21st century meeting modernday figures and meeting Superman etc? No.

But they do it anyway. It can occasionally be interesting perhaps, but it really is not what Jonah Hex is about, it isn't who he is or what he was created for.



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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The Dr though is used to having to deal with major league threats, so wouldn't bit those type of villains be right into his comfort zone?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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I think Priscila was actually 18 when they wed!


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Daveym

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Those type of villain yes, I said as much, the Star Trek Universe is similar they too will meet super-beings and pseudo-gods and have to deal with them. But that's an example of fitting a villain to meet the level the given genre is set at - you absolutely could have the Enterprise or the Tardis slip into Jack Kirby's Fourth World and have a story or two there. But if you shift the narrative to introduce Orion... it starts to fall apart very quickly. Orion is a one-man army, he does not need the Enterprise or its crew. The story therefore is shifted to him.

And that;s the problem with having a superman like The Ghost operating in the Doctor Who world: you wouldn't need the Doctor to stop a Sycorax invasion - The Ghost would do it. The Daleks have a scheme for hollowing out earth's core? No match for The Ghost. The Silurians are up to mischief again?? Forget it. A Daemon is awakening in Devil's End and threatening to end the World? Well he'll be taking a sore butt home once The Ghost gets through with him...

It's a different genre The Ghost belongs in, and it is one that the Doctor Who/Star Trek universes is largely incompatable with.



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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    I think Priscila was actually 18 when they wed!


She was 22.

But she was 14 when they met (Elvis was 24), 17 when he first got her away from her parents for a fortnight's trip to Vegas, and 17 or 18 (But early May 1963), when he moved her into Graceland permanently.

This was four years before they married on May 1st 1967.

And according to some accounts from those close to Elvis, the wedding only took place because Priscilla's father threatened to have Elvis charged under the Mann Act (taking a minor across state lines for sexual purposes) if he didn't marry her.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,276


I would think that could make the Ghost living on different earth like planet though, one where there are others like him about!


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Daveym

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I think you could yes. In the modern series anything goes. And that's one of the major problems with it for me. But yes, you could say that there is an alternate earth where superheroes exist - we saw in David Tennant's era there are alternate earths with very different histories, so that is one possibility for doing another such superhero story.



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Ancient One 

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    Quote:

    I think you could yes. In the modern series anything goes. And that's one of the major problems with it for me. But yes, you could say that there is an alternate earth where superheroes exist - we saw in David Tennant's era there are alternate earths with very different histories, so that is one possibility for doing another such superhero story.


It's possible that the Whoniverse, the MCU, DCU, Star Trek, Star Wars, and just about any other book/film/franchise you could mention all exist within the same infinite multiverse.


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Daveym

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Yes, why not. I think at the heart of the matter though is whether you could imagine a Rose Tyler companion going through training and taking to wearing a Batwoman/Wonder Woman style costume?
In the original series it would be absurd, that isn't the world Doctor Who operated in. But the modern series rapidly demonstrated it has no internal or storytelling rules it is governed by, instead anything goes. So when Russell Davies introduces Jack Harkness he is almost a spoof, then Davies gives him immortality and he is effectively Captain Scarlet, a Superhero, wearing a trenchcoat and dashingly handsome. We see UNIT has its own Helicarrier. The Master is reintroduced and he too is super-powered, a cackling Marvel Supervillain capable of shooting energy and flying through the air. We have those unbelievable Monks in 'Tooth and Claw' who are clearly only one short step away from superhero territory. You can look to Madame Vastra and Jenny as a superhero couple, Bill Potts ends up as a cosmic powered being, The Doctor himself can now take hitting the ground at a hundred or more miles an hour from a great height and get up, He can take multiple hits from Cyberman weapons and a ground zero nuclear scale explosion completely unscathed as the environment around him is obliterated.

So is it reasonable to propose the character today, and his/her/its world, is in fact already a Superhero one - that the Doctor has been refocused as a Superhero? In the original series it would be absurd to have Ace or Peri in any sort of a superhero costume - that wasn't the world the show and its characters operated in. Today, you could do that, you could do anything, and that is not a good place to be for the show I feel. Even Harry Potter's world is governed by rules and the storytelling dictated by its many limitations, Doctor Who on the other hand isn't governed by anything at all as far as I can see... it's all been washed away over the course of fifteen years. Anything goes.



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,276


Jut saying become part of the DR Show on a regular basis, but nice to know can call up[on the Ghost if need be!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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yes, inside the Omniverse!


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JesusFan


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The Drwent from being the james Bond of outer space to now being more akin to a Dr Doom wannbe!


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    yes, inside the Omniverse!


Whoever came up with the idea of an Omniverse doesn't quite grasp the implications of a multiverse.

An infinite multiverse will hold every every permutation of every kind of universe you can think of, each one replicated an infinite number of times.

So an 'Omniverse' is... kinda redundant.




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Daveym

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"Omniverse" is a corporate concept. I think it was possibly Mark Gruenwald who voiced the concept for his story where Quasar enters The New Universe in Quasar #31. The New Universe had been clearly stated as having no connection with the Marvel universe whatsoever, so to make the story possible and preserve the original premise to the New Universe Gruenwald devises a situation where while on a mission in the Multiverse on behalf of the Watcher Quasar is blasted while opening a Quantum gateway and is transported out of the Multiverse, to what the Watcher can only speculates is an Omniverse - another sequence of Universes unconnected to his own.

So for the purposes of Doctor Who the concept would and could be used to explain why it is there is no Star Wars, Star Trek, DC, or Marvel universe in his Multiverse - these licenced properties would exist outside his Multiverse... also, see JLAvengers as a possible example.

Great story Quasar #31 by the way, I love Gruenwald's explanations and the fact that the story has not one fight in it. It's all character and concept driven. This story is the spiritual successor to 'Flash of Two Worlds' in my view. \(yes\)



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Ancient One 

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    Quote:

    The New Universe had been clearly stated as having no connection with the Marvel universe whatsoever...


And that's exactly the way a multiverse would operate.

Some number of these universes would have completely independent origins, and be very different to our own.

Some number of them would have independent origins, but be very like our own.

Some number of them would share a common origin, but diverge at some point.

And there'd be an infinite number of each, and of every other permutation in between.

But whether from the point of origin, or the point of divergence, those universes are unconnected and because of a physical property (like our old friend the Pauli Exclusion Principle again) they can never interact.

Some of the physicists working on the 'many worlds' interpretation of quantum physics speculate that while an infinite number of 'universes' exist, they all exist within our universe, just in regions of space that for obvious reasons can never be accessible to us.

So, everything would comfortably fit inside one multiverse. Now, nature never makes anything in ones to our knowledge, so there could be an infinite number of multiverses, but as they'd all be exactly the same as every other multiverse...



    Quote:
    Great story Quasar #31 by the way, I love Gruenwald's explanations and the fact that the story has not one fight in it. It's all character and concept driven. This story is the spiritual successor to 'Flash of Two Worlds' in my view. \(yes\)


Agreed. I don't think I've ever read an issue of anything Gruenwald wrote that I didn't enjoy.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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That is the accepted standard term though for it!


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JesusFan


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Think that is where they saw the original marvel/DC crossovers happening, outside of both and in the Omniverse!


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