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Daveym

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One of the things to appreciate about the original series of Doctor Who is that it had rules. Rules clearly laid down to define what Regeneration could and could not do, rules on what the Tardis could and could not do, and, over time rules to govern time-travelling.

Although the science governing time-travel was something that was only gradually developed, and was specifically the subject of 1972's Day of the Daleks, attitudes in the early years of the series tended to be governed by the fact that the Tardis was faulty and therefore never landed in the same time and place twice. So the question as to what might happen if the ship landed its crew in a time and place they were already existing in could be side-stepped... but What If....?

It's a question which might possibly be the subject of 1965s The Space Museum, a story which opens with the Tardis landing on a planet, next to a museum and the crew learning that they "..have jumped a time track" - their future selves are found as exhibits in the museum and destiny will see the watching phantom crew catch up with the 'present' and be forced to try and escape their fate.
It's a complex idea at work in this first episode, the suggestion is the Tardis has malfunctioned perhaps and delivered its crew into their near future, a future that saw them captured and turned into grotesque exhibits behind glass cases. As time catches up and the crew slip into phase the exhibits disappear and they enter the present. Can they avoid their fate?
More to the point though this is a unique example of Time-travel itself being used and studied in the series' earliest years, and forms a part of the insight into what the producer and writers attitudes to the science of it might have been at the time.

Is it possible for the same person to exist simultaneously with themselves is the question. And the answer seems to suggest that the makers of Doctor Who at this time considered the answer as "No".
If natural safety devices in both the Tardis and time itself act to keep the crew from ever sharing the same time and place it can never happen, but if something went wrong... and it DID happen, then the view at this time in the series' history is that the 'visiting' time-traveller would become a phantom, out of phase with reality, and could only be a spectator on the present and their 'future' selves. It's a concept that echoes the science seen in Superman comics of the sixties up till the mid-eighties. A sixties view on the science that would govern time-travel... and in principle the concept is a sound one. For some reason however the neatness of this concept of a safety-valve that shifts a visiting time-traveller into a phantom state that is out of phase with their environment is something that fiction phased out of its literature. Why.... is hard to say. As it IS a very neat and practical idea to rationalise the science that would have to underpin time-travel. (Coffee)






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Iron Man Unit 007

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In the Justice League Cartoon, Superman got blasted into the far future and was thought to be dead.

He meets Vandal Savage and they finish his time machine but VS states he cannot travel back to an era where he already exists. But he can send Superman back home to prevent that dark future from occurring.

In the early Fantastic Four and Avengers it was shown that Doom's time machine which Reed later takes as his own can send someone back and keep them out of phase so that they can observe without interfering....except for the time when Cap travels back to see if Bucky did survive and the machine was adjusted to allow Cap to materialize and fight in the past to ensure his past self was thrown into the ice....

So at some point there was indeed a firm rule that the past cannot be altered, only fulfilled and that someone cannot/should not exist in an era that they are already in.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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So there can be no Dr who happens to be say david tennett meet a past or future version of him?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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When the DR decides to change history, does that alter the timeline or create another alternate one?


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    When the DR decides to change history, does that alter the timeline or create another alternate one?


You can't change your timeline.

If the Doctor (Or anyone else for that matter) does make a change to an established history, then all they're doing is creating an alternate timeline. A parallel timeline.

Which is not really that big of a deal, considering that alternate timelines are probably being created naturally every second of every day.




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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    So there can be no Dr who happens to be say david tennett meet a past or future version of him?


A *version* of him, yes. There could be two copies of the Tennant Doctor running around and interacting in the same universe. But they wouldn't both be *from* that universe. One of them would be on a visit from an alternate universe.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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So there would be essentially nigh infinite time lines that the Dr could travel down upon?

That every version of the Dr could be living in one of those lines?

Thought Dr can history his history, but cannot change "fixed points" in time?


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JesusFan


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Ah, like classic trek where the matter antimatter Lazerus were forbidden to ever meet!


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Ah, like classic trek where the matter antimatter Lazerus were forbidden to ever meet!


Weeeeellll... Kind of. But totally different. But if thinking about it that way helps... It's all good.

Bringing matter and antimatter together is just a bad idea. The two sets of particles will annihilate each other in a massive burst of energy. You can do it easily, but if you were standing too close to the event, you'd be having a very bad day.

Bringing two versions of the same person together from different points in the same timeline isn't just a bad idea, it's impossible. Probably.

In (Real) physics, we have the 'Pauli Exclusion Principle'. Basically, Wolfgang Pauli proved mathematically that certain kinds of particles - quarks, leptons and baryons, amongst others - can't exist in the same place with the same physical properties.

What that means for time travellers is, if the particles that make up the bodies (And clothes, and other objects) of the two versions are in the same quantum state, then there may be a physical property of the universe that prevents them ever meeting.

However, there's no guarantee that they would actually be in the same quantum state, so I'm on the fence with this one.


The Whoniverse has it's own version of the 'Pauli Exclusion Principle'. They call it the 'Blinovitch Limitation Effect'. First mentioned in Day of the Daleks, and seen in operation in Mawdryn Undead.


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    So there would be essentially nigh infinite time lines that the Dr could travel down upon?


Yes.

    Quote:
    That every version of the Dr could be living in one of those lines?


Yes.


    Quote:
    Thought Dr can history his history, but cannot change "fixed points" in time?


Paradox isn't something that can occur in science. If come across an apparent paradox, it just means you're getting it wrong and there's a solution somewhere you've missed.

But travelling into the past and changing it would create a paradox, and a domino effect of paradox that would ripple on into the future. There are only three solutions to this problem:

1) You're prevented from going into the past. Time travel can't happen.

2) You can travel to the past, but you'd be prevented from interacting with that past and thus couldn't change it.

3) The instant you appear in the 'past', you create a divergent timeline. An alternate universe. You can interact freely there, but your original timeline would remain unaltered.

Given the nature of Doctor Who, we can safely draw a line through the first two, which only leaves Solution #3.


The idea of 'fixed points' is a ridiculous one. ALL of spacetime in a given universe must be 'fixed'. If not, that would mean the vast majority of it is changeable, and that leads us back to paradox. And physics abhors a paradox.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 27,702


I thought that under at least Matt smith Dr, he idi change historu, but not able to do fixed events, such as when he told amy that if she died with rory that would be final!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 27,702


It would take beings on order of Q and Imps to bypass those laws?


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Ancient One 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    I thought that under at least Matt smith Dr, he idi change historu, but not able to do fixed events, such as when he told amy that if she died with rory that would be final!


I wouldn't look to the new series for consistency if I were you.

For example, in Utopia the David Tennant Doctor clearly states that fixed points can't happen.

In later stories, the David Tennant Doctor says they can.

FYI: He was closer to the truth the first time.


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    It would take beings on order of Q and Imps to bypass those laws?


Thankfully, neither of those exist in the Doctor Who universe.

My thoughts on it are: No, even they couldn't.

Quarks, for example, are subatomic particles that exist within atoms. If you change what quarks can do, you change how atoms behave. And if you change how atoms behave, you change how collections of atoms - matter - behaves. So change quarks, and you'd probably find yourself in a universe with radically different kinds of matter, or maybe no matter at all.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 27,702


Guess that is why someone like Dr mahatten is so dangerous, as he seems to want to affect all of these changes just to observe what happens!


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